(also takeover request) should locking and forced "merger" of communities be allowed?
(also takeover request) should locking and forced "merger" of communities be allowed?
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/1119656
The !android@lemmy.world community on this instance thrived for a while and reached almost 19k subscribers very rapidly and it was very active.
Recently the Reddit mods of r/Android created another community with a few hundred members on another different instance where they are mods and that one was then astroturfed on c/android by a person seemingly unrelated to that community's mods.
Apparently some discussions then took place between owners of both communities and the mods of !android@lemmy.world community then unilaterally closed the community, thus, according to their own sticky notice, succumbing to the flawed reasoning that the Reddit mods are "more experienced" and therefore the rightful representatives of an Android community.
I find this behavior sad and it just shouldn't be allowed here for two reasons:
- this sets the precedent for more Reddit mods to just come and claim "ownership" of communities by bullying existing ones into closing;
- does not respect the almost 19k subscribers who didn't even have a say in this, and especially those who had already expressed that they joined !android@lemmy.world because they did NOT want to be moderated by the old Reddit mods.
!android@lemmy.world needs to be reopened now and the mods removed since they expressed that they no longer want to moderate a community on lemmy.world.
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Having had more time to read over the arguments in the other thread, I do think that the community c/android here on lemmy.world should be reclaimed. Maybe after a little while, so the redirect has the intended effect - it was their community, and I think it's fair to give them a little time to try and get people to consolidate to where they wish, but after that let someone else have the name.
What I do not agree with is your framing of the situation. You have instantly escalated things by insisting this was bullying when that has been confirmed to not be the case, and are trying to pin the mods who decided to do this as intentional bad / rogue actors without actually giving them a chance to resolve the situation in a manner you find acceptable. Did you even message these mods first?
Why do we need to carry over this intense hatred and assuming the worst of others from Reddit? Can't we leave this bad habit behind and try to actually solve problems reasonably before resorting to inflammatory posts?
bullying
We can disagree on the term but it was, and I still insist, essentially soft-bullying when they push bogus arguments like their instance "being better because of custom patches" and highlight that they are r/Android mods. It doesn't have to be openly malicious, in fact they were doing it while being cordial. That's still intimidation.
Crossposting my comment here, as I just noticed the conversation has moved to this thread.
I think you're mistaken on a few things here:
- The offer was not made behind closed doors, nor was there intimidation. You can see the offer here. Ultimately, moderating depends on a lot of effort by many volunteers. Lemmy moderation tools aren't quite there yet and we need each others' help to keep these communities safe and informative.
- It's a good thing to share the burden. Ruud and team are making outstanding efforts to keep lemmy.world operational, but this is very costly and arduous work. It's a good thing to distribute that load across multiple servers.
- We're working to encourage more communities transition from Reddit to Lemmy. For those of us around for the Digg to Reddit migrations (both the 2007 and 2010 waves), we're hopeful about helping solidify Lemmy's place going forward while challenging the current Reddit administrator's overbearing approach to communities for the sake of business interests. We have nothing to gain from volunteering. We just like to help foster the types of communities we ourselves like to be part of.
- Lemmy works differently from Reddit. This is perhaps the most important point that I think some folks migrating from Reddit might misunderstand. You do not need to be on the same instance as the community you're accessing! In fact, !android@lemdro.id exists within Lemmy.world. Nobody needs to make a new account, and nobody is leaving. That's the beauty of the Fediverse!
Look, this all leaves a bad look on your new instance while all of this could have been handled much more smoothly without the need for astroturfing a few days ago (I know you claim the user isn't affiliated with you, but it still felt weird that literally after that you answer with another ad for your instance "it's not us we're sorry, anyway here's why you should join us") and then coordinate this shameless closure of !android@lemmy.world over your private chat. It could have been handled in a friendly way just like many c/Technology communities coexist across instances without the need for one to feel the need to extinguish all the other "Technology"s.
Would you have a problem with the current Android community re-opening under new owners?
That will be a decision for lemmy.world admin to decide. However, I think itโs important that mergers be considered distinct from closures/abandonment. Previously on Reddit, moderators would sometimes merge their teams to keep up with workloads. This would mean locking one subreddit. If such a community were to be requested on r/redditrequest, it would be denied because it wasnโt abandoned, but instead repurposed as a way to redirect members.
Opting to fulfill such requests would be more in line with the current Reddit admin approach of overriding existing moderators. Itโs a valid path to take, but one that I would be very hesitant to support. I think a community could be opened up if truly abandoned (i.e., the place it redirects has been retired and the moderators are no longer logging into the Fediverse).
It's definitely a complex issue - and totally agree, mergers are not the same.
It does feel disingenuous for you to dodge a yes or no question.
I'm not trying to be rude, but setting up a new instance without clear (edit - server level) policies and rules and no GDPR compliance and then expecting people to move over rather than choose to move doesn't look great.
If you want everyone over to your instance because of whatever reasons you should be very transparent why and have it set up appropriately before that move starts - and be plain that you don't want competing communities.
If you are happy to have multiple communities, it's easy just to say you support that.
Sorry if it sounded like a dodge (it's also 5 AM here so I'm half asleep). Certainly wasn't my intent. My opinion is that admin shouldn't be taking away communities from moderators unless they've truly abandoned, not merged. But I also recognize this will be something for each instance's admin to decide.
But the question of multiple communities in terms of starting a different one or supporting another alternative? That's great and an integral part of the Fediverse - each community will be a reflection of their particular rulesets and approaches to moderation.
Folks are absolutely welcome to access the community from other instances. There's no need to switch your login. One my fellow mods actually runs his own instance that he logs in through.
Some other options: https://lemmy.ml/c/android (probably the oldest on Lemmy) kbin.social/m/android squabbles.io/s/android
I shared some more insights about rationale for the instance in my earlier posts if you don't mind checking my history. I'd get you the links but I'm about to pass out! I didn't manage the Mike and Devgard's transition but I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have. Just leave them here and I'll respond tomorrow.
Definitely time for a sleep!
I have seen your other comments, and I think my issue is (hopefully obviously!) not at all with you, but it is the principle - the choice of multiple communities is being taken away.
For what it is worth (not much) I think you wanting to take load off .world is great, and you patiently answer people's questions and are polite and helpful. As I said, I don't mean to be rude, but if this was happening to a community I was invested in I would be angry and rightly so I think (but to be clear I have never posted on Android, and really it is the principle).
You are doing what seems to be a good job handling a tricky situation, although I think your server needs some clear policies and goals and server-level rules, clear information about funding and GDPR compliance etc. to help build trust. My personal opinion based on seeing one post is that Mike, on the other hand, is not handing this well at all - and comes across as very rude and really condescending and I have replied to his post saying this. Responses you have made compared to his are miles apart. That's just my impression, and not meant as a personal attack. I would hope he can look at how you post and learn from it. Good luck with the moderation if recent responses are how he speaks to people!
No rudeness felt here! I really do appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. These conversations are important. A few thoughts:
- I think we were all taken aback by some of the accusatory tone and misrepresentations in the Snoo's posts and comments here and on the first submission. Mike and Devgard are quite reasonable and considerate folks, as you can see from their approach to this thread when they thought we had been trying to promote the new community in theirs.
- In terms of instances, there's no real difference when it comes to where the community is hosted. Users still login through their home instance and content is still propagated across the Fediverse (every single federated instance hosts a cached copy of that content). This is why there's no effective difference to the end-user if an instance is relocated other than the URL becoming slightly longer (from lemmy.world/c/android to lemmy.world/c/android@lemdro.id).
- Ultimately, both teams needed help (moderation is currently significantly more tedious on Lemmy than Reddit) and using a specialized instance makes a lot of sense for the Fediverse. The alternative of leaving the older one open but less moderated would be worse considering the spam and scams already appearing (including those trying to recommend random apk files that are most assuredly malicious).
- On the GDPR, I appreciate you raising this. There are some questions and challenges that remain for all of Lemmy itself considering how content is cached across instances by default. My understanding is that this hasn't quite been settled for Mastodon either. A number of us are big fans of the GDPR, even those of us to whom it doesn't directly apply (but we often still benefit when companies implement mechanisms to come into compliance). I personally intend to investigate how Lemmy handles purged content but we should have some basic language filled out soon.
- On the instance operations, a lot of work has been done and continues toward scaling. That includes vertically (e.g., server resource specifications automatically increase and decrease as needed) and horizontally (e.g., automatically spin up separate server instances to share loads). Some of this is already in place, which has kept costs very reasonable. More is underway that should bring them down even more drastically and set it up well for higher traffic. It's currently funded by Cole who has committed to us his willingness to do so - but there are many others among us willing to chip in funding and server resources. The plan is for everything about lemdro.id to be open source - including any to have any custom code and cost-saving techniques to be published on Github, as well as to have closed administrator chats be publicly visible. The aim is for long-term longevity that could outlive anyone currently involved.
Hope you managed to get a decent sleep!
On GDPR, this is a thread from today: https://lemmy.world/post/1131665 - there is a helpful post to some other discussions. Just linking it as there are a few good observations made. Totally agree, there are seemingly a lot of challenges but I am not sure there is an appreciation of how easy it is for anyone to raise non-compliance and the consequences. I'm sure some people have a really good understanding, but I suspect some do not - especially given how vastly complex it is and the lack of urgency some people seem to treat it with.
I feel like there is a lot to learn about how to manage community transitions / mergers / transfers etc as Lemmy grows.
merged
Bro, not to be rude, but that's literally abandoning the current one. You can sugarcoat it and use all the fancy words however you want, the fact remains that you closed the community for 19k people and the decision was made only by 2 mods after you've shamelessly asked them to do that over private chat. 19k users didn't even have a choice and one of your new mods even made it openly clear that he doesn't give a shit what 19k users think and that it's bad luck for those who don't like the forced closure:
Iโm not aware of any charter that says Iโm obligated in any form to offer the community a say in the decision. Should I have? Morally, thereโs obviously an argument for yes. But did I have to, no. The choice was mine, and I made one. Itโs your bad luck that I started the community, I suppose.
This one-man decision can never be called a "merger", just stop deceiving yourselves. Again, it's a forced closure by 2 current mods and new Reddit mods who couldn't imagine a world where they don't own the community. I repeat, you robbed 19k users of their choice to stay here, it is a forced closure. There is no "merger" just because you agreed with how Reddit was running things in the past (and conveniently leave out that right now they don't allow for locked communities either).
conveniently leave out that right now they donโt allow for locked communities either
I think it goes without saying that we don't want to import today's Reddit into the Fediverse. With that said, even Reddit today does not go as far as to force merge-locked subreddits open (although their bot has been known to mass message some normally locked subreddits).
Mike may have been a bit blunt in his response to you, likely in reaction to the accusatory tone of your post and comments here. I completely understand that you dislike Reddit moderators and that's fine. But it's worth keeping in mind that many folks have moved to the Fediverse over recent weeks because we disagree with the very ideas you're currently espousing - namely how Reddit has been trying to subvert moderator discretion over their communities by threatening/actioning replacements when decisions don't go their way.
trying to subvert moderator discretion
It's insane how you don't see how you're trying to usurp a community of 19k users and make it seem as if it was a collective decision when it was not. It's insane that you Reddit mods are still not ashamed to have pulled this off.
How hard is it to understand?
YOU. ARE. NOT. THE. 19K. MEMBERS. OF. THE. COMMUNITY.
YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DECIDE THAT WE AS A COMMUNITY ARE MOVING. IT WAS NEVER YOURS AND YOU HAVE NO CLAIM ON IT.
NO ONE EVER ASKED TO MOVE. However, YOU are free to leave and have fun with your new instance.
YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to close the community and prevent its 19k members from using it.
IT IS OUR COMMUNITY, NOT YOURS, AND WE WANT IT BACK.
You should be deeply ashamed of how you're still defending this.
This is what I meant by being too angry. For Christ's sake, it's been a few days and all that happened is a community was redirected to a different one.
I used to be this angry about Reddit, years ago, and looking back it was something I should not have invested so much hatred toward. Are you expecting to actually reach reconciliation with the involved parties or are you expecting for instance admins to side with you and override the opposition?
And !android@lemmy.world exists within lemdro.id, that's also the beauty of the Fediverse. I don't trust your instance (and I don't have to even think about it, no offense) and I, and I'm sure many too but they weren't even given a voice and you see nothing wrong with it, were already happy with our community here. You have no right to expect us to close it for you to grow your 3 days old one.
I'm sure more folks will chime in when they're awake due to time zones, but the majority who are voting on their announcement seem to be supportive thus far?
I absolutely support you setting up a new community, but absolutely don't support closing down the original one here on this instance - people should be able to decide which community they prefer. One will naturally grow to be the dominant one.
.world are transparent about funding and approach, have clear policies in place. I can't currently see any of that on .id, and the only thing I have to go off is posts you have made and the conversation around it.
To me, it feels very disingenuous and currently your instance is not at all transparent and more importantly not GDPR compliant from what I can see - therefore, how can I trust it?
Hello, I've built software to be GDPR compliant before.. so far as I can tell, NO Lemmy instance is GDPR compliant yet due to no way for the original server to delete user content from remote servers. Is this wrong?
I think you're right. Some instances do what they can to be compliant, e.g. .world have various notices and wording in place but no cookie information and consent etc.
The data and how it is transferred and processed and stored, along with deletion requests I have no idea how that is going to be compliant!
Dude, just let the people choose, don't force them to your community. I don't trust you one bit, so I for one ain't gonna go there.
This, the dude is just giving us more reasons to completely break this shit and kick the current insecure mods out and forcibly reopen the community. I'll remind everyone here of what the other mod said when asked about whether the 19k people have a say in this:
Iโm not aware of any charter that says Iโm obligated in any form to offer the community a say in the decision. Should I have? Morally, thereโs obviously an argument for yes. But did I have to, no. The choice was mine, and I made one. Itโs your bad luck that I started the community, I suppose.
A person saying this should be removed immediately. A mod saying this, and with ijeff@lemdro.id still supporting him since part of the deal is that this mod will become a mod on the new community of the foreign instance, should not be trusted anywhere, even on the new instance.
*Crossposting my comment here, as I just noticed the conversation has moved to this thread. *
I think you're mistaken on a few things here:
- The offer was not made behind closed doors, nor was there intimidation. You can see the offer here. Ultimately, moderating depends on a lot of effort by many volunteers. Lemmy moderation tools aren't quite there yet and we need each others' help to keep these communities safe and informative.
- It's a good thing to share the burden. Ruud and team are making outstanding efforts to keep lemmy.world operational, but this is very costly and arduous work. It's a good thing to distribute that load across multiple servers.
- We're working to encourage more communities transition from Reddit to Lemmy. For those of us around for the Digg to Reddit migrations (both the 2007 and 2010 waves), we're hopeful about helping solidify Lemmy's place going forward while challenging the current Reddit administrator's overbearing approach to communities for the sake of business interests. We have nothing to gain from volunteering. We just like to help foster the types of communities we ourselves like to be part of.
- Lemmy works differently from Reddit. This is perhaps the most important point that I think some folks migrating from Reddit might misunderstand. You do not need to be on the same instance as the community you're accessing! In fact, !android@lemdro.id exists within Lemmy.world. Nobody needs to make a new account, and nobody is leaving. That's the beauty of the Fediverse!
*Crossposting my comment here, as I just noticed the conversation has moved to this thread. *
I think you're mistaken on a few things here:
- The offer was not made behind closed doors, nor was there intimidation. You can see the offer here. Ultimately, moderating depends on a lot of effort by many volunteers. Lemmy moderation tools aren't quite there yet and we need each others' help to keep these communities safe and informative.
- It's a good thing to share the burden. Ruud and team are making outstanding efforts to keep lemmy.world operational, but this is very costly and arduous work. It's a good thing to distribute that load across multiple servers.
- We're working to encourage more communities transition from Reddit to Lemmy. For those of us around for the Digg to Reddit migrations (both the 2007 and 2010 waves), we're hopeful about helping solidify Lemmy's place going forward while challenging the current Reddit administrator's overbearing approach to communities for the sake of business interests. We have nothing to gain from volunteering. We just like to help foster the types of communities we ourselves like to be part of.
- Lemmy works differently from Reddit. This is perhaps the most important point that I think some folks migrating from Reddit might misunderstand. You do not need to be on the same instance as the community you're accessing! In fact, !android@lemdro.id exists within Lemmy.world. Nobody needs to make a new account, and nobody is leaving. That's the beauty of the Fediverse!
and I think itโs fair to give them a little time to try and get people to consolidate to where they wish
I disagree because it's also the 19k users' community as well and many never asked for any of this and are being interrupted from participating in it because of the whims of one single person. It should be reopened immediately and the former (because I don't recognize he has any claim anymore as he officially abandoned it) mod can promote his new community elsewhere just like everyone else does. No one owes them a "redirection pause" and that's inappropriate vis-a-vis the 19k members who are still being coerced to move elsewhere.
Unless there is some kind of federation issue any user could just follow the redirect and subscribe / participate in the other community with practically no hassle. I was able to subscribe to the communities on the new instance just fine. Any interruption of browsing would be solely due to stubbornness of not moving off principle. And maybe that principle is justified - maybe the new space will be moderated differently, in a way you find worse - but it does not change the fact that ultimately this is a small issue and you are blowing it out of proportion, on purpose, for no good reason.
It's also worth noting that the migration also means being open to beehaw users as well. We'd do a proper automated redirect and import over existing history if we could. The aim isn't to cause disruption. What's great about Lemmy is the ability to both not switch instances when accessing other communities and the ability to switch instances as needed.
It's not blown out of proportions because many, me included, simply never asked to move. If this is allowed then parking community names to force users to go to other communities should also be allowed.
It's not like you're being forced to move to a new house or something. It's like two clicks on a website.
I'm not saying that this issue isn't a real one, I'm trying to say you're being much too angry about it and (intentionally or not) stirring up a little witchhunt when this could be handled much more casually.
bad / rogue actors
I didn't even say this, but now that you ask me, closing the community without asking for the approval of the members, and then tell me that he still believes he doesn't think he is "obligated in any form to offer the community a say in the decision" (his exact words) is something I'd attribute indeed to a bad actor.
when that has been confirmed to not be the case
Quick epistemological clarification - nothing has been "confirmed" to be or not be the case.
It has been asserted by one of the actors that the action taken was not malicious or underhanded or whatever. In the simplest terms, in response to the accusation that they acted in a malicious way, one of the actors said the equivalent of "Did not!"
That might well be true. It might even be argued that it's likely true (though I would say that the combination of the backroom dealing with which it was done, the capricious way in which the decision was just presented to the community literally at the last second as a fait accompli, the opaque nature of the new instance and the arrogance and disdain displayed in the linked response all serve to undermine that likelihood). But the simple fact of the matter is that it's just an assertion, and the truth value of that assertion cannot be known for a certainty by anyone else, so it does not and cannot rise to the level necessary to serve as "confirmation" of anything.