Just gotta work it in somehow.

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I feel like I do this alot, except it's the Aztec Empire instead of capitalism.
- FWIW I'm one of those people who would rather hear about Aztecs than today's weather, so thank you.
  
  Aztec fact of the day:
  To punish some Altepetl (city states) for rebellion the Mexica would impose near impossible quotas on yearly tribute, such as white jaguar pelts.
- Pre-Columbian American civilizations are incredibly interesting. It's absurd how far they got without wheels, iron tools or animals like horses and cows. I guess I wouldn't mind listening about the Aztecs constantly.
  
  Mesoamerican fact of the day:
  The wheel was actually known to Mesoamerica pre-European contact. Archeological finds included toys, food preparation tools, seal rollers, and spindle whorls for textile making.
  I'm a history nerd and Mesoamerica is quality content.
  
  the dense tropical forest made backpacks way better for transportation of goods.
  
  That and the fact that they had no draft animals.
  
  Their secret was murdering their children to win the favour of their gods.
  
  For Tlaloc only ones born on lucky days.
- I do too, except it's billionaires instead of capitalism.
  I believe in capitalism, it just needs to be very tightly controlled and heavily skewed in favor of the disadvantaged to keep it fair.
  
  I just want feudalism to end
  
  Capitalism always exploits someone whether the bulk of the exploitation is within your country’s borders or not. Being perfectly comfortable within capitalism comes at the expense of someone else regardless of regulation.
  
  One, I don't believe it has to be that way. With enough taxes on the wealthy, regulation on commerce, and social programs for the poor, I think a system of fairness can be achieved.
  Two, I don't believe that communism of any form result in a sense of fairness for anyone. I believe most humans have an innate desire to work to improve their lives, and I don't believe communism offers the same freedom and opportunities for self improvement through honest work that can be offered by tightly regulated capitalism in combination with strong social programs.
  
  The fact that the poor still exist in your ideal "fair" society indicates that a capitalist system still relies on exploitation. How do you make "work or starve" disappear while still being capitalist?
  Communism is a stateless, moneyless society. It's a utopian marker for people in the present day. It's not a fixed ideology in and of itself. The Spanish Anarchists of the CNT-FAI and the USSR have very little in common but both aspired to implement communism, at least on paper. I have my criticisms but they're not relevant.
  You would be correct in saying that people have an innate desire to labor and improve their lives. Capitalism forces you to (attempt to) improve your life and shape the world through competition with your peers. If you're disadvantaged in some way, fuck you. Work harder or die in the streets. Social programs and welfare are antithetical to capitalism. It doesn't independently generate profit and thus is often ignored or slowly eroded over time when it does manage to manifest. Socialism/ socialist ideologies (worker ownership of the means of production) enables people to improve their life and shape the world through cooperation. It seeks to ensure everyone is able to live a dignified life and contribute according to their ability. Humans are capable of both competiton and cooperation and capitalism builds a very one sided society that demands competition. It's a terrible way to live and alienates people from each other.
  Socialism (in my perspective as an anarchist) seeks to allow people to live their lives with the maximal amount of freedom, self determination, and autonomy possible. Whether that includes markets (which I'm assuming is what you mean by capitalism, since that's what most people who defend capitalism think it is), planned economies, gift economies, library economies or something completely different, is a better system than capitalism on a foundational level
  
  Ancom here and I fully agree with everything you said. Hopefully we’ll get to where we’re going one day, whatever methodology ends up working.
  
  I wouldn't bother with any further engagement. Lemmy's tankies are not economically literate and basically operate on their own set of "alternative" facts. Argument is pointless. These are ideologues, not people seeking rational evidence-based solutions.
  
  Two, I don’t believe that communism of any form result in a sense of fairness for anyone. I believe most humans have an innate desire to work to improve their lives, and I don’t believe communism offers the same freedom and opportunities for self improvement through honest work
  Historically communism allows for more improvement though. Working class people would be able to take college classes in the evenings for free. Peasant girls went from a future of marriage and housework to being able to be scientists.
  It is more easy to motivate yourself to be better at your work when what you're doing benefits everyone than to motivate yourself to be better at your work when what you're doing just benefits some bourgeois fuck.
  
  then it's no longer capitalism.
  
  What would it be to have a market economy with private investments and also a system that ensures the tax system ensures everyone has at least basic housing and access to vocational schools and higher education? I don’t want to completely upend the system but tweak it so Kevin Griffin cries himself to sleep at night
  
  Idealist. It would be easier and more viable to just have the means of production be owned and democratically managed by the proletariat than to share power in the long term with our exploiter without one side or the other losing.
  
  Bullshit. We already know that mixed economies can work well and we already know that centrally planned economies lead to dictatorship due to the incentive alignment problem. We also know that centrally planned economies are incredibly inefficient at distributing goods and services. Communism is just a terrible idea and no amount of magical thinking and idealism can make it a good idea. The only way it works is on a very small scale where everyone personally knows everyone else, and that's not in any way practical in a world of 8 billion people.
  
  Yes it is.
  
  Capitalism cannot be regulated to become fair. Capitalism is irrational and immoral, it does not need to be controlled or reformed, it must be overcome
  
  I believe in capitalism
  If you think billionaires are bad but capitalism is good you don't know what capitalism is. You should seriously consider reading some of marx's shorter works like Value Price and Profit and Wage Labor and Capital.

55 comments