What's some really unpopular opinion you have?
What's some really unpopular opinion you have?
Most of the time when people say they have an unpopular opinion, it turns out it's actually pretty popular.
Do you have some that's really unpopular and most likely will get you downvoted?
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The rise of feminism has seen the steady devaluation of the contribution of men in those areas of society where they should be most active. Rather than celebrate and recognise what's right, the focus is on attacking what's wrong.
The majority of men are lonely, isolated and uncared for. Many feel unvalued, unsafe and vulnerable. There is less community support for men than there has been in the past, less institutional support, and a continued decline in the tolerance of men being in shared places. The minimisation of value in societal roles is yet another way that men are cut off.
This seems to escape the vision of feminism. There is always claim of ideological alignment, where the empowerment of women directly benefits men, but when it comes to any form of concrete action that helps men that need help, or celebrates men that contribute - it's nowhere to be seen.
Men kill themselves. They kill themselves. In their thousands. Leaving cratered families, trauma, guilt from the survivors, many of whom are female. Because they feel valueless, helpless and can't see a purpose to going on.
Accountability goes both ways. In demanding support from men, feminism must support men.
Because they feel valueless, helpless and can't see a purpose to going on.
I strongly believe this has nothing to do with feminism and is just a problem of the capitalist society we live in that only treats labour and hardwork like shit unless it can generate 1000x profits year on year. Building and serving a community isn't rewarded. Everything is about greed and more profits. Feminism can't solve capitalism. It can't stop people from feeling it's fucked up consequences like loneliness, feeling unvalued and committing suicide.
Yeeeees
The majority of men are lonely, isolated and uncared for
Suicide rates are down amongst the youngest, the highest suicide rates are from people over 50 and specifically, white people over 50
I don't think you're wrong that men are going through their own struggles.
The thing that is probably a sticking point is that a lot of the structures that support women in the modern world are largely created and maintained by the work of women. Like, the food pantries and the foster care I went through was skewed much more heavily with women doing probably 75%+ of the work in the organizations (some of them closer to like 98% of the work), both for the aspects that supported women specifically (programs for single mothers and such), and those who served both men and women (like food pantry or health services).
So the question is--why are men not banding together to support other men? You guys KNOW there's issues being neglected by society. So...where are all the men making organizations to socially support men going through mental health crisis? Why are you not looking at the women's organizations and taking notes and learning from how they're structured, and taking up those tools yourself to adapt to this situation?
I don't think it's true that men making an organization to help other men's mental health would be somehow driven into the ground by some group of evil feminists or something--the women I've seen working with "feet on the ground" for supportive organizations were not like that.
I think there'd be side-eyes if say, a new free mason organization popped up where businessmen are cutting deals in no-girls-allowed backrooms or something. The old rich-boy fraternal network of power, you know? Where people in positions of monetary or political power try to exclude others from that power?
But something genuinely out there to, say, talk with men struggling with mental health, or suicidal thoughts, and to talk incels out of being incels, and to promote a healthy way to cope with the changing world and the stress the world and "masculine" gender expectations put on people I think would get a bunch of big positive nods from the women I've known who've been volunteers for "women's organizations". Like--yes, it's definitely needed for you guys! And fundamentally a different sort of support network than the old-boys networks that feminists historically protest.
Like, there's a big difference between alcoholics anonymous and a college frat known for abusive hazing practices. There's a big difference between a group of vets talking together about their war experiences (like all the vet lodges for WWII and such), and a professional organization for people in a given career that doesn't (for example) admit female members. One type of organization focuses on the mental health and well being of its members, the other type of organization is hoarding power. It's the "hoarding power" types of organizations that feminists protest.
Another problem with helping men with mental health is that often men don't listen to women on certain topics. There seems to be a dire need for male leaders who will approach other men and talk with other men about these squishy, emotional things. Because one dude being an example is one of the few things that can get through to other dudes sometimes.
But there's a social stigma for men who are too "emotional" and "vulnerable", so it's hard to get volunteers for this to kick off the trend. But someone has to do it? And it's only something other men can do?
I think a lot, sometimes, about the Captain America scene where Steve is going/half-leading post-snap support group. It's a fictional example, but it basically showcases/envisions the type of leadership that needs to develop for dudes. And it's not a position a woman can easily step into, because plenty of guys who need help are already rejecting women for any variety of reasons (bitterness, resentment, fear, anxiety, whatever). Some guys need to step up to the plate and be like Captain America, on a local level, so local support groups for guys can happen.
I honestly don't think "women" would get in the way of an organization like this--or at least, the women in the circles I hang with wouldn't. I think it's more the lack of men willing to put their necks out there (judging by the gender imbalance in volunteer and support organizations I've been exposed to), because it's certain to get plenty of pushback and blowback and be hard work for little recognition and little pay.
So the question is–why are men not banding together to support other men?
I'm a member of a left leaning political party, a few years ago some people tried to start a men's group (there is already a women's group, queer group,...). The attempt was immediatly shot down.
I have very little to add to this excellent comment, other than my heartfelt praise. Thank you.
I agree with your point in theory. But whenever men even mention "hey, we're not all the villains you're making us to be, y'know?" we get such a huge backlash that we figure out it's pointless. I stopped caring quite some time ago. Guess I'm the villain now.
… But whenever men even mention "hey, we're not all the villains you're making us to be, y'know?" we get such a huge backlash that we figure out it's pointless.
No one thinks “all men are the villain”.
If women treat you like this consistently, I guarantee you, you give off some kind of villain vibes.
You need to figure that shit out instead of externalizing the fuck out of it, like you are doing here.
Why the personal attacks? I personally don't have problems with that, I have a relatively happy family which struggles with the usual shit - no own place to live and health stuff, but I think I can safely assume neither of that is a result of my personality. I'd even say that when it comes to people, more people I've met personally probably like me than dislike me.
Your comment is the exact kind of shit men have to deal with - I mention something that concerns me, which is how men are treated as villains in media and social media and your advice is to "figure that shit out". No, thank you, I have nothing to figure out, I just shared some observations I have.
The reason there's often backlash when a man says "not all men" is because its similar to saying "all lives matter" after someone says "Black lives matter". It's often said in a way that detracts from a conversation around women's struggles.
Also, from personal experience, if a women says something about men being the worst, or men are bad, it's not because they hate all men. My wife says men are trash all the time, but she married one. She says that because she has been victimized by way too many men. Harassed by a multitude of guys. I've seen the messages she's gotten, heard her stories, and just listened to her experiences as a woman. It's honestly worse than you'd think if you've only lived as a man. And now I say men are trash too.
And it's NOT all individual men, but there is an underlying culture of toxic masculinity that exists. There's healthy and positive masculinity too, but it's not seen by some women. I've been told by several women that I'm "one of the good ones" just because I'm doing the bare minimum to be a good person. That's not the norm, and I'm seeing that more and more in the people I'm around irl and online as well.
So it sucks being grouped in with villainous men, I get it. It was something I struggled with at first. But I know that some women have to default to "all men suck" as a defense because of what they've been through. And it's more beneficial for me to focus on being a good person and calling out shitty behavior, than arguing whether it's all men or most men or some men if I want to help make a positive impact.
That is an important point. But why it’s unpopular is that it’s not “feminism’s” job to do this. Feminism is a struggle to give women equal opportunities to men. They do not include race, poverty, and definitely not men’s issues in this.
To put it bluntly: It’s not women’s job to fix men.
Men’s loneliness crisis may have come about as a result of modern societal changes. Including equality for women. But it’s men who need to organise and fix that.
(And honestly- as someone who has moved around the western world - this seems uniquely American problem. European men have rich social lives. Even in the most feminist nations)
To put it bluntly: It’s not women’s job to fix men
Is that so? Surely you expect men to help with the goals of feminism, no?
Imagine saying the same thing in reverse: unequal payment for women because they are not forceful enough to push for more? Sad but what can you do - it's not men's job to fix women after all.
If people really think that, then screw this 'f* you, I got mine ' version of feminism and push for a better life for everyone. This is such a shortsighted way to live and not even try to look beyond your own horizon.
Ok fine. I can concede the point that women should help.
But it is not women’s fault that men are lonely. It’s definitely not feminisms fault.
Nah, it comes from "feminists" making men the villains. And women listening to those "feminists". It doesn't concern me personally - I'm a man who's pretty comfortable with who I am and some power-tripping psychos who hide behind feminism don't really change anything about that, but sometimes I'm really sorry for men who are less sure of themselves or who internalized hearing they are the bad guys from all sides.
Sounds like you got black pilled by your fellow incels.
Do not blame women for that.
Also thanks for dropping in on a respectful conversation with your bullshit. It all you lot do.
Wow, first time I've been labeled an incel. Not sure if you've noticed but the only one being disrespectful here is you. Anyway, you go on my naughty list.
I think feminism isn't a particularly good term for equality, which is the actual goal. The real problem is toxic masculinity, which hurts women probably most of all, but also all men who aren't willing or able to exploit the system at every opportunity.
Feminism was never meant for equality, the aim was equity between the sexes. The vocal majority deem this as "necessary" collateral damage for a "correction".
I'm sure many people will fight me on this, but give me a couple of concrete examples where feminism has not exacerbated a divide amongst the sexes.
The problem is that some take it too far, on both sides. I'm a man and have considered myself a feminist for most of my life, but I can still call out the toxic aspects of feminism, an example being "girl boss" culture, that shit is just as toxic as some aspects of toxic masculinity.
Don't get me wrong, obviously women should be allowed to have the same jobs (leading/managing included) but just be a normal good leader, you don't need to copy the shitty behavior many men in power exhibited
Edit: I guess it's more an issue of capitalism and some of its inherent flaws
While I agree that feminism should support men, the guys who aren't capable of having friendships with other humans are just, for whatever reason, anti-social.
I'm a single guy in my mid forties. I have a huge social group and feel incredibly loved. Where this stigma came that men can't get therapy or can't cry or be affectionate with other men, I don't know. I've never experienced this. Possibly because, thanks to the rise of feminism, my single mother was able to raise me with a career where she was able to put in the work and climb the corporate ladder without a college education. I didn't have some dirt bag chauvinistic father raising me to treat women like meat. My father was a carpenter, an artist, and a poet. I learned the value of friendship and community and affection in my home. If someone's struggling with loneliness or their place in their community, I wouldn't blame feminism so much as their own family and inhibitions.
I think you're confusing "men" with "assholes". It doesn't matter what gender or sex you are, if you're a dick, you're not welcome and society is going to judge and punish you. In that sense, perhaps feminism has failed us in its support of all.
God damn this is the most real thing I've read in years.
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Suicide is the biggest killer of people under the age of 35 and the biggest killer of men under the age of 50
(i will probably be in that second statistic)