How bloodthirsty are the Liberals in your country right now regarding the war in Ukraine?
How bloodthirsty are the Liberals in your country right now regarding the war in Ukraine?
During the last few days I noticed a few people demanding that every Ukrainian refugee in Germany who is of able bodied age should be forced back to Ukraine to either fight on the front or work in ammunition factories or hospitals. As far as I can tell no major publication or politician has echoed this sentiment yet. I hope that will stay this way. But the sheer audacity with which these people demanded strangers to be sent to their death is astounding. "Fighting to the last Ukrainian" really is something they want and it sickens me.
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Japan, there was an initial outpouring of support, we never like to be behind on the latest Cause. There were a few marches and the like, but those seemed to be largely foreigners and the foreigner hanger-ons, I know very few people personally who participated.
A lot of that sentiment has kind of burned out from what I have seen. A lot of people I have talked to are, understandably, sad about the loss of life but see immediate peace talks as the best way to bring that about.
People were very against NATO's attempts to built an office here (which thankfully got stopped), and were worried we would be used as a Ukraine vs China if the situation in Taiwan escalated. It's the most vocal I have seen people protest for a while, we tend to be very politically apathetic.
Sanctions on Russia have also hurt us immeasurably, we are obviously located very close to them and rely on Russian trade in several sectors. Sanctions plus a general move away from nuclear power has resulted in a 50-60% increase in electricity bills this summer across the country. We always have people, mostly the elderly, die every year from heatstroke and there is an expectation that this summer is going to end up even worse than usual. Not to mention the yen has absolutely tanked, which reduces our buying power even more.
Basically since people here have been affected, at least economically, a lot of the popular support has waned.
Basically since people here have been affected, at least economically, a lot of the popular support has waned.
Interesting. Here in Germany we can also feel the sanctions quite a lot. Electrical bills also went up and big concerns announced that they would leave Germany and outsource their production to somewhere else. So a lot of people are afraid they could end up jobless in a while. And yet support for Ukraine is not going down. I think it just makes people more bloodthirsty.
We have had our arguments over territory, but by and large the average person here have never had a very anti-Russian point of view to begin with. It was a pretty popular language to study for business reasons, because we do so much trade with them. We also don't have much of a connection to Ukraine.
I think a lot of the Japanese opposition was more a "war is bad" point of view, as opposed to "russia is evil". Which results in people just wanting a resolution as soon as possible. On the other hand there's not a good understanding of the circumstances that caused the war, and the news doesn't really report on it. So there are still plenty of people who think Putin woke up one one day and decided to invade for no real reason. They just would still prefer the killing stops now.
Could it be that people in Germany have the idea that if evil Putin is defeated, everything will just return to normal?
So they are rabidly in support of a war that actively makes theirs lives worse on the grounds that if they "win" then things will just go back to normal, but if they "lose" then all the bad things that are happening due to their involvement in the war will become permanent?
Maybe but then again Annalena Baerbock herself said that things won't go back to being normal "even after Ukraine has won".
So it might be self delusion at this point.
Things won't go back to normal because Baerbock's mission to further subjugate Germany under the boot of the US will have been a roaring success.
Hmm. I'm not sure then. It could be that they just don't believe her? Libs do tend to reject news they don't like to hear, even from "trusted sources."
I'm trying to make sense of support for Ukraine in Europe. In my own country it makes sense, because Rupert Murdoch tells us to jump and the public all reads in the headlines exactly how high.
But in a country where the war is causing worsening material conditions? I would've thought the propaganda can only go so far before people start to care more about their own lives and livelihoods than some abstract "war" in another nation.
I remember a lot of predictions around the first winter during this war, that Europe would stop their support due to preferring not to freeze to death or go into massive debt to prevent it, but it seems that the increased cost of living, gas especially, hasn't dampened their spirits too much, so I'm really wondering why they're so ok with this. It could just be a loud minority who are wealthy enough to not be majorly effected, while the poorer people support the war far less I suppose.
I would like to know more about the state of things over there if you've got more information for me.
I think the answer is multy tiered. A big reason for the mentality of many Germans is Germanies recent history.
A lot of Germans still feel somewhat guilty about WW II and believe it's their duty to prevent another Hitler. But since analysing the reasons for Hitler's rise to power would require a critique of capitalism and it's inherent relation to fascism it's not taught that way in school (or anywhere). Instead it's the usual "great man theory" nonsense.
Combine that with the systematic smear campaign that is going on since the dissolution of the GDR and you end with the current situation. Tons and tons of Germans believe that the GDR was a horrible rouge state where the Stasi disappeared you for thinking a single subversive thought, the UdSSR was worse than Nazi Germany and Stalin was best buds with Hitler.
Now we are in a situation were Germans believe that Putin is trying to rebuild the UdSSR and since communism is worse than fascism, it's totally justifiable to arm Nazi's to fight Russia. But Putin is also totally just like Hitler. This has gotten so ridiculous that a common name for Putin is Putler now (Liberals and contradicting themselves, name a more iconic duo).
Supporting the fight against Russia is seen as a way to show that we are good boys now and have learned from the horrors of fascism and supposed horrors of communism. At least that's what somewhat well off liberals believe.
Those who actually feel the consequences of the war flock to the far right AFD party. Mainly because there is no good left wing alternative. The Linke is busy with infighting and the DKP is way too small and the average member is older than 50.
I see, yeah, there are probably a lot of reasons, though "preventing the next Hitler" is something I hadn't really thought about much. That's what our libs say about Putin too, but for some reason it didn't occur to me that Germans would take a strong stance because of that.
Though it is kind of scary to see the nation that literally empowered Hitler not actually teach anything about his rise to power. I expect it from my own country, but Germany? I guess it does make sense. I've often thought that the "next Hitler" will goosestep into the room and declare the enemies of western capital "nazis" as a way to get people on board with Fascism, but it really does seem like that's Germany's actual plan, instead of it just being incidental.
If socialism ever does rise in the west and we don't just descend into barbarism, I have no real idea how we could properly educate and deprogram the masses, so much bullshit is pushed into their heads, and it is so "easy" to believe, while actual attempts at understanding history require a ton of energy and nuance.
I mean, it is going down. You can see it by the rising numbers for the AfD. While people will likely never outright go "this is a waste of time, let's ditch Ukraine to save ourselves" there's a lot of people going for the party they think will give them just that - and it happens to be the far-right - who have no qualms about supporting Russia over questions of morality and aren't constantly infighting.
The whole War in Ukraine really was the nightmare scenario for the left.
and rely on Russian trade in several sectors
I'm guessing oil and metals?
For imports, metals, coal, oil, gas. Which makes it pretty readily apparent why our energy costs have skyrocketed. We actually get a lot of seafood from Russia as well, which may surprise people who assume we just get our own fish. Salmon and roe primarily, I believe.
Exports were largely cars or car parts.
We actually get a lot of seafood from Russia as well
That sure as hell surprised me!