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Really seems like a 50-80% is meaningful, but for whatever reason you're tying yourself in knots trying to justify not liking wearing a mask.
It's like saying there's no point in stopping smoking when you've been diagnosed with lung cancer because there's ONLY a 30-40% risk reduction of dying. Or maybe refusing to wash your hands because every cold or flu you've gotten has been 'not that bad'. Except in this case, the risk reduction is for everyone around you instead of just yourself.
Like, whatever you want to do bud, but you're not convincing anyone that basic hygiene while you're sick isn't beneficial.
Sure, 50-80% would be great if that's the average case. But it's not, that's the best case, and apples if the mask:
- is fresh
- fits properly
- is high quality
But if you're wearing a mask all day, it's not going to be fresh, will likely not fit properly the whole time, and probably not be very high quality. Most of the masks I saw at the height of COVID were crappy single-layer cloth masks with effectiveness in the single digits.
So your average mask is probably 5-25% effective on net if worn all day.
That's why I say we shouldn't be wearing masks all day, we should only wear them when it's important. That way, people are more likely to use a fresh mask and ensure it fits properly. I can put up with wearing a high quality mask for a few hours or days, but if you ask me to do that every single day, I'm going to get lazy, and lazy reduces effectiveness.
At the height of COVID, medical experts wanted to slow the spread to preserve hospital capacity, so even single digit effectiveness was fine. But these days, there's not much point to such low numbers of effectiveness, so mask-wearing shouldn't be an everyday thing, but instead something you do when it's especially important. Make it a normal thing, just not a routine.
Sure, washing your hands reduces risk of infection by 16-20%, but that's best case, and applies only when:
- You wash for at least 30 seconds
- You wash with the right kind of soap
- You do it after you use the bathroom and not before
So really it's probably 5-10% effective on average. That's why i say we shouldn't wash our hands all the time, only when you've actually touched shit."
That's a completely separate thing though.
Masks prevent one on one transmission. Washing your hands prevents many to many transmission. Surfaces are touched by more people than you'll directly interact with in a day. So even if it has a lower per-contact effectiveness, you have orders of magnitude more contact with contaminated surfaces than infected people.
The average mask wearer marginally reduces their transmission risk, especially if you consider that most people aren't infected. The average hand washer dramatically reduces their transmission risk because they're washing off other germs they've picked up (i.e. you don't need to be sick to spread disease through touch).
Masks prevent one on one transmission
I don't even need to read the rest of your comment, this is inane.
Do you understand how respiratory infections spread? Unless you're sneezing or coughing, it only really affects people in you immediate vicinity. Hence the one on one description.
Contact spread (e.g. what washing hands prevents) impacts anyone who touches the same surface. That's a much bigger pool of people than would be in my immediate vicinity.
Unless you’re sneezing or coughing, it only really affects people in you immediate vicinity
You're almost there bud, just keep it goin'
Not sure what you're getting at. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to wear a mask all day every day when you're healthy. It's just nonsensical.
If you're sick or around sick people, sure, but not if you're healthy.
Masks prevent one on one transmission. Washing your hands prevents many to many transmission. Surfaces are touched by more people than you’ll directly interact with in a day
Almost like more than one person breathes the air in a room, just like 'surfaces are touched by more people than you'll directly interact with in a day'. If you're on an airplane or working as a doctor seeing sick people, it makes sense to wear a mask even if you aren't displaying symptoms, because masks reduce the transmission of airborne viruses, both for you and for the people around you. For the same reason washing your hands is efficacious when touching lots of public surfaces, wearing a mask is efficacious when breathing the same air as lots of potentially sick and at-risk individuals, especially if you are doing so frequently.
I'm not concerned with what your personal practices are with your mask-wearing, but you've been downplaying the efficacy of masks this entire thread and then backsliding when you meet resistance. You're making up rational based on "wearing a mask is inconvenient", vibes-based logic. You don't think masks are worth the inconvenience for healthcare workers, and I'm saying they objectively and meaningfully reduce the spread, and whatever perceived inconvenience you feel is worth it if it prevents transmission in high traffic and high-risk environments.
more than one person breathes the air in a room
Sure, but air is also continuously recycled in a building. The CDC recommends 5 air replacements per hour, and most commercial buildings are above that.
working as a doctor seeing sick people
Agreed. But that's not what I'm talking about. I explicitly said I would wear a mask if I'm sick, in close proximity to someone who is known to be sick, or in close proximity to someone who is known to be at significant risk of becoming sick.
All of that is completely within CDC recommendations.
Most people are not around sick or at risk people all day, so wearing a mask is pretty silly for them. The additional protection against someone who might be sick in public is minimal (you probably won't get COVID from a chance encounter with an asymptomatic carrier), especially if you've already been wearing it all day.
Handwashing helps prevent accidental contact, so it's highly recommended regardless. You should be washing your hands consistently throughout the day even if you don't work with sick or at risk people.
you've been downplaying the efficacy of masks this entire thread
Alternative perspective: you've been consistently misinterpreting what I've said.
I cited efficacy numbers, which are based on close proximity to a symptomatic individual. That's not the situation we're discussing, we're talking about all day use of masks even when not in the presence of a symptomatic carrier. You're getting at best 50% reduced risk of infection, probably much lower. If you're if you're in a commercial building with typical ventilation, asymptomatic carriers will have their breath sucked into the ventilation fairly quickly (typical office is probably ~5 cycles per hour, a hospital is probably more frequent). The risk for infection from proximity to someone who is merely a carrier is already quite low, and adding a mask doesn't meaningfully increase your protection.
That's why I'm opposed to all-day wearing of masks for most people. It's not going to meaningfully reduce your risk of infection. If you're around known sick or at-risk people, absolutely wear a mask. If you're not (i.e. you're part of the majority), wearing a mask is essentially pointless.
You don't think masks are worth the inconvenience for healthcare workers
I do, just not for every role of healthcare worker. Healthcare workers should wear one when in the presence of someone who is sick or at risk. If they're working with sick people, wear a mask. If they're doing well checks, routine procedures, etc, I don't see a point.
In other words, dress appropriately for the work you're doing. The CDC has reasonable recommendations here, and I follow them myself, and sometimes go beyond. I don't follow the "always wear a mask" mantra though; that's not what the CDC recommends, and that's not what any healthcare professional I've ever talked to recommends.
I feel like I've been very consistent here. Wear a mask if you're around sick or at risk people, don't bother if you're not (unless there's a local spike in cases or something that changes local guidance, but that should go without saying).
Either you've misread the context of the post or you've intentionally jumped into a conversation about healthcare workers wearing protective gear and steered it towards a general 'i find masks uncomfortable so why bother' discussion. The reason you've been so aggressively downvoted is because the post is speaking specifically about preventing exposure to at-risk individuals in a healthcare context, and yet you've decided this is actually about you not wanting to wear a mask for your own benefit.
I feel like I’ve been very consistent here.
- You responded to a post specifically about masking in a healthcare context, stating that you don't see a point in wearing a mask because you end up getting infected anyway
- You then said "The mask doesn’t prevent the spread, it just slows it." in response to someone pointing out that it's not for you but for others
- You had a whole-ass pedantic argument about "prevention" and "reduction", even after acknowledging that masks have significant efficacy (50-80% under correct usage), ignoring that risk reduction is what we're talking about when discussing prevention. (preventative care is never about reducing risk of illness to zero)
- You then shifted goalposts, taking 'meaningful spread reduction' to instead mean 'moving toward complete eradication/containment', implying that if masks cannot eradicate infection then they shouldn't be used (??) (this makes my head fucking spin, are you really suggesting that preventative measures are only worthwhile if they can eradicate an illness completely? e.g. since not smoking doesn't eradicate my risk of lung cancer, why bother cutting it out at all??)
- When challenged (i argued 50-80% was meaningful), you walked back your previously cited figures, since 'people don't wear them effectively so really it's not even 50%, it's less than that so really it's not effective'
The only thing you've done consistently is downplay the role masks play in reducing viral transmission, while constantly complaining how inconvenient they are.
I don’t follow the “always wear a mask” mantra though; that’s not what the CDC recommends, and that’s not what any healthcare professional I’ve ever talked to recommends.
Good thing nobody is advocating that here, you dense motherfucker.