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It's funny that leftists call him genocide joe when Trump would be actively worse and offer additional manpower.
Complain and downvote how you like, but consider which candidate you actually have a chance of getting to agree to your point of view.
No shit, Biden is a genocidal asshole but at least he's not trump that's the whole point of the uncommitted campaign
Problem is that actions breed habits. And if it comes down to Joe and Fuckface 45, they'll likely do the same in November ... which will NOT end with Joe in office.
Then I guess Joe Biden better stop funding a genocide then
Clearly "not committing genocide" is too high a bar for the neoliberal mind to grasp
You mean all of America. Because it's not as simple as that. We have agreements and contracts and alliances we can't just get rid of at the drop of a hat without consequences.
We can all stand with Palestine - and yes, I do - but do you also want that happening to the US itself? You really wanna fuck with that hornet's nest?
A vote against Biden is a vote for Fuckface 45. And he's worse.
You want that? You want Fuckface 45 again? Say it.
You do not understand the US primary system.
These registered Dems, the only people who can vote in the Democrat primary, know full well the fascist guy is worse https://web.archive.org/web/20240306112504/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905 he has already said it explicitly on just the genocide of the Palestinians. And we all know that he tried to overthrow the US government and did many illegal things already.
The US can do anything it wants at the drop of a hat. That’s an appeal to authority. Israel is almost completely dependent on US trade and support, they’re literally our proxy in the Middle East. They have fought in explicit proxy wars for us already against other nations. There is plenty of leverage, which is why this movement has stayed urging Biden to end the genocide.
If you stand with Palestine, you should vote uncommitted in the Democratic primary to let the Dems know how many people actually want the killing to end. Because until it does, more and more will be killed. They literally die and are dead. A protest vote with no systemic consequences that boosts the call to end the genocide of the Palestinians is worth it, as many people have calculated.
Glad you got it :)
It's funny because at this stupid stage in America, not voting for biden this November is an active vote for Trump and the redoubling and active support of Israel's genocide.
"Yay we sure helped the Palestinians by not voting for someone who continued support of a country doing genocide but has been able to be swayed away from them and causing someone who wants to outspokenly kill all Palestinians to have control and kill many times more Palestinians." Bastions of morality...
Vote for others in the primary, but vote for the D in the main election.
Who is this “they?” Anyone who is voting “uncommitted” has enough brain cells to know both candidates are bad for the world, which means they have enough brain cells to know Biden is an obvious choice in a Biden v Trump matchup.
Those people are voting uncommitted for Fuckface 45 then.
Do you understand that in the primary there is no contest between Trump and Biden? Biden’s going to get the Democratic nomination anyway, so voting uncommitted in the primary has no negative consequences in the actual election that happens in November?
No. The answer is no, they don't understand.
Of course they understand. They just want to frame opposition to genocide as support for Trump.
And you think people aren't going to keep this mentality for November?
What mentality? The one I’m describing is the “Biden sucks but Trump is way worse” mentality. I don’t see how that results in Trump being elected
The "Biden is complicit and we aren't voting for him" mentally. Primary or not, this "movement" can gain a lot more momentum going into November than is desired.
People voted uncommitted in an effort to tell Biden that he needed to improve his policies, not to say that they’re gonna not vote. If they weren’t gonna vote, they wouldn’t have voted.
That's the thing. People who are pretending that this is a vote for Trump are doing so because and ONLY because they don't want Biden to abandon his support for Netanyahu's genocide.
This is a dumb take bred from perceived superiority.
actions breed habits
Lmao "I got to the polls in November and my muscle memory took over and I voted uncommitted in the general election, since I did it once 8 months ago I couldn't resist". This is like Dunning-Kreuger for life in general.
Or is it a "just don't do anything" enlightened centrist take?
Ivan Cantu got over 150k signatures for a stay of execution, and he's still dead. I'm not a centrist, far from it. I'm a progressive.
But I also understand game theory, psychology, and sociology (all on an admittedly amateur-ish level), as well as how First Past the Post voting works in the US. I'm 100% for a cease fire in Gaza, humanitarian aid, the Israel government to be tried for war crimes, etc. But how YOU are doing it has shown time and again that it doesn't produce results. Oh, so I guess I know a little history too.
So, for instance, you remember 2020 when George Floyd was murdered in cold blood in the streets and then the world's largest protest broke out? What happened?
What was accomplished via those protests? Did Police Brutality stop? What about the more pertinent Police Brutality of POC? Did Qualified Immunity cease? How many bad apples are still in the bunch? Police unions get busted? We got a couple of "I'm sorry"s, and a fucking street naming.
You see, while collective action CAN do things (not much), you need to understand that this vote ain't gonna do fucking squat. You got a 100k+ votes for uncommitted? Yay. Out of 330+ million people in the US. Less than 1%
The general election has been called. And either Biden or Fuckface 45 is gonna win. By recruiting to third party, you're swaying more people to:
- NOT vote for Biden at all (which is a vote for Fuckface 45)
or - not vote AT ALL in the general election in November (which is a vote for Fuckface 45, because the Rs always vote)
I'm not voting for Fuckface 45 in the General Election. Are you?
You wanna stop the genocide today? Take to the streets with a gun in hand. Take to Israel with a gun in hand. Take to a senator's house with a gun in hand. Don't self immolate, you'll just kill one of your comrades in arms.
While I don't think everyday life should ever have a gun in hand, when you want IMMEDIATE political / wartime change, non-violence solves nothing. (this goes for protests against police brutality, bring a gun - take the mask mandate protests, they were armed, they got what they wanted)But if you want gradual policy change: vote local, campaign local, work with a local candidate, etc.
Otherwise, you're just trying to find your friends, and you're making enemies of possible allies.- NOT vote for Biden at all (which is a vote for Fuckface 45)
Just because trump is an infinitely low bar doesn’t mean Biden isn’t actively supporting genocide.
I’m sick of seeing “But Trump is worse!!!!!1!” whenever there is a discussion of how fucking terrible Biden can be, especially on his candid genocide support. And the cries from the Democratic party to fall in line behind a president that is failing to support the will of the people in that party is a bit shitty, even though it is inevitable in such a hierarchical power structure.
Like, the problem isn’t “who would support genocide less” it is “why the fuck is the president supporting genocide” and the other question we should be asking is “what is causing us to be in the position that we are debating on who is the lesser evil pro genocide candidate”
Also, I’d like to point out that biden is a hardcore zionist. He will never not be a hardcore zionist. He will never be convinced to stop supporting israel, and we will lucky to even convince him to stop supporting israel until the genocide stops. Or to just call for a ceasefire now.
First pass the post says a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump. Sadly that’s how the system works. You need preferential voting to send a message of displeasure.
girl u may have missed that this was for the primaries, not the general election
So this will stop and everyone will rally behind Biden after the primaries? I hope so. This one issue is horrific, and I wish there was a reasonable 'no genocide; option. There really isn't though. And the sense I get lately is more 'don't vote Biden' generically, without acknowledging the impact this could have once we're through the primaries.
This type of vote will not be called for in the general because in the general, even if Biden does not change his stance on ending the Palestinian genocide, because the fascist republican alternative is worse.
Anyone who is calling for “don’t vote Biden” in the general election is a fascist. You can disregard them as they’re very likely just Russian bots trying to sow discontent.
I see many people who keep commenting here are not in tune with the “uncommitted vote” campaign because no major news org has really covered it. They don’t cover it because it is to end the Palestinian genocide and major news orgs have held a pro-Zionist line the entire time (e.g., there was a 400,000+ anti-genocide-in-Palestine march in DC maybe a month ago, and no news orgs covered it in any meaningful way (AP had coverage downplaying it the day before and none the day of) or at all (NYT did not cover it).). This is to once more try to enact the end of a US-funded genocide via the will of the voters in a safe way, as Biden is guaranteed to win the primary.
You do not understand how the US primary system works.
This was not the general election vote where Biden will face a fascist.
This was a 2nd term president democratic primary, which the incumbent almost always sweeps. This allows for protest voting with no actual repercussions like fascists winning.
They are protesting the active genocide of the Palestinian people, it is worth the effort to try to enact change which no downsides.
No shit thats how the system works. Its a hierarchical representative democracy with FPTP voting in a capitalist country, and we are seeing the inevitable endpoint of such a system. A system like our glorious failure of “democracy” will end in despots and fascists trying to sieze power through populism.
But you don’t need preferential voting to send a message of displeasure. There is nothing about FPTP that says you are incapable of voicing displeasure, it is done via different means than preferential voting.
The idea that a vote for biden is a vote for trump is a complete fallacy. In this failed republic, we don’t even have popular voting for the president. In many places around the country, your vote literally does not matter because of FPTP voting. If I’m unfortunate enough to live in a deep red state where there is no hope of the GOP losing, what difference does my vote make?
If I am more fortunate and live in a deep blue state, what difference does it make if I don’t vote at all? It’s incredibly unlikely biden will lose there, even if Biden is deeply unpopular amongst the voting base.
If I live in a swing state, you might then have an actual incentive to vote. But there is still the catch on what district you live in, because even in swing states there are some districts that are deel blue or deep red.
Because of the Electoral College the concept that “a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump” is complete horseshit for the majority of Americans. This is just a strategy to shame people into voting for someone they don’t like.
Not voting, or voting for third parties is the way to send displeasure with our two parties. Trying to restrict the only ways to voice displeasure is extremely unhealthy for what we claim is a democratic system. It is like taking painkillers to treat what would otherwise be treatable cancer. If you ignore the problem it will grow until it becomes untenable.
Leaving this threat open does a lot to shape policy. If that avenue was closed, the political elite class would have a less incentive to consider the needs of the working class. Considering there is a modicum of “democratic” choice in the US, if the needs are not considered, eventually the political class will make enough mistakes that people give up, and they will lose support, possibly for a long while.
Shaming people to vote is also a genuinely bad strategy. I was fucking pissed about this shit in 2016 and in 2020, even if I despise trump. Being shamed into an action is not exactly a good feeling, and having it repeatedly happen doesn’t exactly breed confidence in the system, it breeds contempt. If you are making a part of your own voting base feel contempt with you or the system, you are shooting yourself in the foot. It might have short term gains, but I worry that you will lose voters in the future.
Finally, this is the primaries. This election does not determine the outcome of the election in a given state or the nation as a whole, but it will demonstrate what could happen if Biden doesn’t change his strategy of ignoring the problem.
I'll hardcore pass on voting for a treasonous bastard. I'm already amazed that we didn't nuke the fucking planet when trump was in office. I'm not giving him a second chance.
Same. I’m not going to vote for an christofascist cunt who wants to take my rights as a queer person, or the rights of the people I care about.
I’m simply sick of the “BuT TrUmp!!!!1” that is always shouted whenever people criticize biden. Every president is a war criminal. Biden deserves his criticism, even though trump is also culpable.
100% criticize away! I'm just getting annoyed by seeing all of the "don't vote Biden" bullshit lately.
Imo an acceptable alternative is "remember to vote for the lesser evil!"
Or even my favorite, "write your congresspersons to stop the genocide!"
I'm gonna push back a little on that thought.
Saying "don't vote Biden" is very important, actually, and it's hardly bullshit.
First and foremost, when you are in the mindset that voting is all you can do, saying "Don't vote for Biden" opens up a great conversation about voting, democracy, racism, and pretty much any issue that is tied to the US government. These conversations are important, and must happen. There is a radical praxis to not voting, whether you'd like it or not. If voting for one of two parties is the only acceptable form of political action, than not voting, voting third party, or something else (such as setting up prefigurative structures) is a good, radical action.
Before you point this out, I do have issue with how many leftists, communists, and anarchists just skip this conversation online, or say something like "Oh, these conversations have happened before, just read this book" or some nonsense. I get that having this conversation a million times is exhausting, but it's important. You don't have to do it every time, but if you are able to jump in and take over, you should!
If this conversation is good, it should point out that the supposed "democracy" we have is not only fragile, and being taken over by fascists, but that it was really only a democracy for a small group, not the idyllic idea of the majority getting their say and representation. It should also point out that this "democracy" has been a tool used against minorities as a cudgel, bringing pain and suffering for centuries. It should point out that there are many positions that the majority of the public want, like social/single payer healthcare, yet we have a top aide to the democratic speaker of the house, telling lobbyists to not worry about it!.
Second, Biden is not entitled to any voting, and he needs to be reminded of that with the threat of non-voting, and anti-voting advocacy. The idea that someone is entitled to your vote on the basis that they are not someone (IE: the lesser evil) else is antithetical to the core concept of democracy: bringing power and representation to the people (often through majority voting). Imagine that you have two candidates in a FPTP voting system, one person that is 100% hitler, and another who is 80% hitler. It is obvious that the lesser evil is the one that is 80% hitler, but if the country consists of primarily people who want a 0% hitler candidate, how is the 80% hitler, the lesser evil candidate, a representative of the people? How does that 80% hitler candidate represent the majority of the people? Isn't that antithetical to the very concept of democracy that such a candidate can exist?
I get that it is a tactical position to vote for biden, considering that trump is so awful. I don't think it's fair to criticize someone for voting this way because it is genuinely a logical and reasonable conclusion, but I do think that the thought process that got them there needs a bit of evaluation.
Third, threatening to not vote for biden (and especially staying true to that threat) is good, actually. I've already mentioned that biden is not entitled to a vote, but it's also important to mention that biden is a human being who has the capability of acting to fix this. "Remember to vote for the lesser evil!" is, unfortunately, placing the blame for biden's actions on the individuals affected by it, rather than the person who did the actions in the first place. Thinking solely from this mindset does not hold biden accountable to his actions, and often leads to blame being placed on people for not voting against their interests.
Finally, you mention "writing to your congresspersons". I think this is a great idea, but it should not be the only mechanisms of political action aside from voting. I can safely tell you that this is often ineffective. One of my best friends was an aide to a representative in congress for a few years before and during Trump's presidency. He has been at the receiving end of a calling campaign from some bigots in my state advocating for an anti-trans bathroom bill, and he told me at some point, he stopped paying attention to it, and he was getting pissed off because it was taking up his time that could otherwise be spent working with residents of the state with other problems, such as social security, VA benefits, etc.
Since my dinner break is coming to a close, all I can really do is be that annoying leftist who shoves a book in your face and recommend a short(ish) book that I loved reading about democracy and voting, and the myths it promotes. Crimethinc.'s "From Democracy to Freedom" is freely available as a PDF online through the publisher, Crimethinc.
This will sound terrible of me, but while this was a truly wonderful and thought provoking post I am the worst person to reply to it as I fatigue quickly from replying with a respectfully long post.
That being said, I'll give the book a read! I also agree with the idea of voting 3rd party. I personally don't have such a party I agree with but if you do, I want you to vote the way you feel.
That’s completely fine, I’ve gotten that leftist 4 hour video essay brain where I just simply use way too many words to explain myself
I think that's the point behind voting uncommitted in the primary. It's to put some heat on the candidate that actually has the potential to change their mind and do something. I can't speak for anyone else, but it's not as if I'm going to be voting for trump in the actual election and I understand how a 2 party fptp election works enough to put my vote in the "capable of having potential to stop supporting genocide" category.
Tankies are only aesthetically left
I don't think OP is a tankie.
ok
