rule
rule
FAQ
Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why aren’t you working to stop the bus?
A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank. but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive. “harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.
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My favorite morons ITT:
”Both options are cliffs!”
Yeah because the guy promising to end democracy and bring about Christian nationalism is exactly the same as the moderate we have now. I hope you’re getting paid to be that stupid.
”I won’t vote to support genocide!”
At the end of the day someone becomes president, and spoiler alert the other option is still worse. It’s cute you think your principles are more important than the safety and security of at-risk groups domestically (and frankly abroad as well). Short-sighted and idiotic.
”We might not even get ice cream!”
Okay well organize and protest that after we’ve avoided the cliff.
”Haha Americans are stupid for the entrenched political system that they find themselves in”
Hope you enjoy your five minutes of smugness, because a Christian nationalist USA doesn’t benefit anyone in the world in the long run.
a lot of the individuals ITT are here in good faith i believe. i’m more trying to get meaningful change to happen than sow discord by calling them morons.
You, i like you
c:
Ive gotten righty whities to agree with me on all sorts of wild leftist ideas, its about finding the angle and humanizing the problem.
A-fuckin-goddamn-men.
You need to communicate with people. Berating them is entirely self serving. No one ever said "you know what? I am a moron, thanks for pointing out my worldview is entirely wrong and I'm an asshole in those exact words."
You can get people to realize they're wrong, but calling them names is exactly the wrong way to do it.
I say "talk to a conservative in conservative language" and they'll understand you. Avoid "trigger" words like redistribution, socialism, LGBT+, etc... use words like "Liberty, freedom of expression, government overreach (when discussing infringement of LGBT+ rights) etc..."
i feel like sometimes people forget the little username in their phone represents a living breathing life that may or may not have had breakfast this morning :(
Well.... with the amount of bots confirmed to be out there.... and some of those living breathing lives are out to convince Americans that what they actually want to do is hand Dr. Fascismo the presidency by not voting or protest voting third party.
Ha, I think at least 70% of Internet arguments are caused by hangryness!
yes and the other 30% are caused by people being bags of flesh with bones and sickness inside
Fair
I hear you and I appreciate what you’re trying to do here, though I am skeptical that these people actually are coming here in good faith.
”Both options are cliffs!”
But they are though.
The cliff drivers aren't getting off the bus, even if we vote them down this time, if we don't change the system that allows them equal opportunity to drive us off a cliff they will eventually force it off the cliff.
Biden has long supported the system that allows it, prides himself on being able to find a middle ground with them, and though he talks about not going over the cliff has no long term plan for dealing with those that do, because again he believes in the system that allows them to want to drive off the cliff.
I believe I've stretched this metaphor about as far as it will go, but I'm going to try stretching it further.
There are actually two cliffs, fascism and climate change, even if we pull the bus away from one cliff we've still got the other in front of us and basically no one is even pretending to deal with that.
And to leave the broken bus scenario, I'm just going to say if you believe that a trump win will destroy American democracy, that we can't defeat his corrupt, senile version of fascism then the next republican demagogue will have no problems.
There are actually two cliffs
Yeah, and Trump is going to drive you off of both.
If you think that trump is capable of that then you admit the American system is so flawed that a diaper wearing dementia ridden criminal is all it will take to bring it down. That Pax Americana is on the death bed and electing Biden is just kicking the can down the road.
Without the looming existential threat of the climate apocalypse and the inevitability of children born today fighting in the water wars, Biden might be fine, but we need action now and anything else isn't just lesser of two evils, it's complete failure in our lifetimes...
Biden has put a hold on a ton of planned LNG infrastructure permits.
Trump gave out permits left and right. Also Trump literally tried to overthrow the government on January 6th.
Biden may not be doing enough, but he isn't doing nothing either. Trump is going to make everything worse for everyone and the climate.
People keep acting like we have forever to make change. Meanwhile we are in the midst of a literal climate crisis, and people are literally starving to death with the help of U.S. dollars.
That Christian Nationalist USA is already present. It's emboldening is inevitable due to the inaction from Democrats and especially Biden: the alleged "moderate" president.
Biden is also actively arming a genocide in Gaza. A move I would say is extremely far from moderate in any position. Trump is a horrible choice for president. It was true in 2016 and it's true now. But if Biden refuses to do even the barest of minimums to defeat him in an election what does that say about Biden?
So sure, call it smugness, call it idiotic or whatever bullshit; continue to vilify those tired of voting for bullshit candidates and inaction. I'm sure that will help prove your point; as Biden does literally nothing to combat any of increasingly tense situations rising in the US under his tenure.
Please don’t misunderstand me: I’m not thrilled about the situation either.
But I’m also not going to coddle anyone that thinks making things significantly worse for untold millions to maintain some kind of ideological purity makes them somehow superior or less culpable.
I wouldn't water opposing genocide down to "ideological purity". It's opposing genocide, and that's objectively right every time.
And that's before getting into Joe's inaction on pretty much any important issues during his term. If Trump wins the 2024 election then outside of the GOP that's entirely on Joe Biden for failing to oppose genocide and run any sort of compelling administration.
The reality of the shitty political system of the US means that it comes down to two bad choices.
However one of the bad choices would see the genocide of the Palestinian people accelerated. Not only that, but Trump has tried to oppose aid to Ukraine, which would allow for genocide of the Ukrainian people to occur unabated.
So if your actions to oppose one genocide results in the continuation of that genocide plus one more, is what you did objectively right every time?
Yes, it is still objectively right. Anyone deciding not to vote for Biden isn't automatically culpable for any Trump victory unless they voted for him personally.
Again, Biden has had plenty of time to prove that he's against genocide. To take any sort of major action to try and stop this genocide from continuing the way that it has. Or at the very least taking away all US military funding from Israel. He has done none of that while approving additional military funding for Israel.
This is of course before bringing up the electoral college and how the majority of states don't even get a say in the presidential election outside of their states predetermined answer.
I will not vote for anyone funding genocide. Again, if Trump wins that's entirely on Biden and the Democrats for failing to do anything. The signs have been here for months if not years in terms of voter disatisfaction: and they continue to do fuck all.
Yes, it is still objectively right. Anyone deciding not to vote for Biden isn't automatically culpable for any Trump victory unless they voted for him personally.
This is an incredibly naïve and privileged perspective, clearly held by someone who has nothing to lose if Trump were to win.
All the anarkiddies that think the revolution is right around the bend forget that the reason vulnerable groups dont typically get any better treatment post revolution is bc they are the first to be destroyed when the revolution kicks up and the fascists double down.
These sorts of takes kill me. There is nothing stopping you from taking revolutionary courses of action right fucking now. The doors wide fucking open. Youll find that those doors will inch closed real fucking quick under trump.
The Spanish anarchists still have a political party active in Spain whose history runs right back to the civil war in which they fought. The very second of their posted tenets is (paraphrasing), making conditions under the current agenda more tolerable.
Meanwhile, russia has a single communist party formed in the 90s. Why? Bc all others were singularly crushed. They left the one that offers least opposition to the status quo.
That situation hasnt arrived yet. You are free to organize, you are free to aggregate in groups. You can spread your own propaganda, just as you can form or join labor unions, and you are free to try and create new communities of mutual aid. Those are all viable (read: necessary) steps to take.
Good luck taking them when the boot comes crashing down harder than this country has ever seen or was ever prepared for. Voting for Status Quo Joe isnt an endorsement of him, his policies, or the neoliberal status quo. Its just that, a vote. You can use it strategically to buy more time to make evasive maneuvers, or u can forfeit ur vote and lose it all. Then theres always throw it to the dogs via third party the way the american libertarians tried in 2012 when ron paul didnt get the repub nom the way they wanted. Guess what happened then... Johnson still get way under the 5% of the vote needed to give third parties greater tv time next time around. And this time, if dump wins, thats probably going to be the last ur able to vote for a third party president anyway.
We (the left) have been hit by foreign astroturfing the way the right was in 2016. The influx of youth that was supposed to save us by their leftward skew is running away from the political process bc they think theyre going to be revolutionaries. Sorry boys and girls, anarchy/communism wont be brought about by memes, sitting at home, or pretending that you can convince ppl to join ur cause after trumps elected when their lives are going to be all the more consumed and their free time dwindles away as we all work heavier and heavier hrs and the retirement age slips further and further away.
Really sick of hearing it all.
Voting for Status Quo Joe isnt an endorsement of him, his policies, or the neoliberal status quo.
that's what a vote is.
It is a strategic decision. Same as the past however many elections.
For the first time 2 years ago, however, i got the opportunity to vote for a candidate that i actually really liked to represent my voting district. And guess what, she won! My vote for her wasnt my endorsement of her, however. My spamming her name and cause to anyone in the area that would listen and donating money was.
voting is an endorsement
These sorts of takes kill me.
Literally me.
Woke up for my graveyard shift and amongst the tankies crying about facts in my inbox i at least had this to make me laugh. Thanks bae <3
reason vulnerable groups dont typically get any better treatment post revolution is bc they are the first to be destroyed when the revolution kicks up and the fascists double down.
citation needed
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_in_Germany
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_for_the_Prevention_of_Hereditarily_Diseased_Offspring
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_for_the_Restoration_of_the_Professional_Civil_Service
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_book_burnings
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_Committee_on_Questions_of_Population_and_Racial_Policy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_bastard
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_für_Sexualwissenschaft
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Spain)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movimiento_Nacional
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadrismo
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Romania
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Island
none of those support the claim
if dump wins, thats probably going to be the last ur able to vote for a third party president anyway.
there is no reason to believe this. he has never suggested animosity toward so-called third parties.
Project 2025 is a thing, it is backed by the federalist society. What third parties remain will be the equivalent of the same in russia.
p2025 is a ghost story told to keep blue voters in line. I'm not a blue voter anymore so it doesn't work on me
I'm actively watching the rights of my loved one literally be stripped away while Biden does fuck all. You can call me whatever you want, but the point remains that Biden has done fuck all and is actively promoting genocide.
You don't know the first thing about me; so don't condescend to me while ignoring everything else I've said.
Biden is president now and trans kids rights are being taken away, black people still disproportionately victimized by police violence, asylum seeking immigrants turned away at the border, and we are funding genocide!!!
It's naive to think that Biden and the Democratic Party has any incentive to change their policies when people will blindly vote them in no matter what they do.
you can do so much more to defeat the reactionaries by visiting:
- a gym
- a shooting range
- a library
- your local revolutionary organization's meeting
than a polling station
It's so weird to see it framed as an either/or. Voting is the absolute bare minimum you can do to participate. So yeah go vote, and also organize your friends and network with like minded people around you and work towards the change you want. I doubt any of the ideologically pure abstainers here have even ever turned out to vote much less actually worked on a campaign.
People frame it as an either/or because the reality is that voting doesn't hold the personal power you think it does.
Due to how our elections work your vote just might be worthless. Add on all of the other issues at hand, and the prospective of voting is absolutely depressing for some of us.
This still doesn't really make it an either/or situation, but one situation gives you the ability to potentially make a positive difference in the world, whereas the other, not so much.
Like I said, absolute minimum you can do.
Lemme tell you a story. In the last parliamentary election in Poland in October we had a record high turnout of 73% or so. This only emboldened the liberals and the pseudo-left to introduce lower health insurance contributions for the capitalists and tax breaks for IT sector but lift the food VAT cancellation despite some product categories still being affected by an inflation rate of up to 20% and gas and electricity prices freeze. Which is actually being justified by the "socdem" ruling triumvirate partner instead of them standing against it. But ig for them idpol matters much more than standing for poor people. Then they're fucking surprised they vote for social conservatives. Just like many Trump voters who are not right-wing extremists but just disillusioned proletarians with false consciousness.
Recently state TV invited fucking landlords to discuss how to deal with non-paying tenants to a morning TV. On the contrary, the so hated social conservative PiS government has at least managed to introduce a vacant property tax. Now under the glorious liberal regime we can expect the rent to still gobble up more than a half of a large part of the population's salary. Yay! So progressive, so European, so democratic! 🥰🎉✌️
Women's rights were the hallmark of their campaign, but we still have one of the most barbaric laws regarding abortion and emergency contraception access in Europe due to the centre-right coalition partner torpedoing any change in this respect – hey, how is doing anything about Roe v. Wade being overturned going?
Also militarism. Both of them (Biden and Trump) will waste massive amounts of taxpayer and printed money on producing fucking scrap metal death machines. But Biden is actually more hawkish. In Poland we are already spending 4% of our GDP (twice the NATO target!) on that and in the past few years it increased by like 260%. All of this despite Russia actually virtually not increasing it's military spending and incessant media reports about how they are using 50 year old equipment in Ukraine.
So many people fell totally duped in Poland right now, and rightly so. Now the hope lies in the streets, in the radicalization of women's protests and gathering storm for a strike wave. Government of the rich, for the rich won't do shit for the working class unless they feel fear. Luckily the farmers' protests have shown the way to go.
The problem is that "moderates" are very conservative and fascist-leaning as well. The Biden administration is still funding genocide, still turning away asylum-seeking migrants, hell Biden hasn't even followed through on releasing prisoners convicted of marijuana convictions.
And people ARE protesting now, but not as much as under Trump, and these things haven't changed. Biden allows barely engaged liberals to think everything is okay, but Biden is still AWFUL he just has better optics to liberals.
Trump is literally a fascist. You’re damn right Biden has better optics…because he isn’t a fascist. So who are you voting for then?
Biden is also a fascist, he's just not proud about it
No he isn’t and the fact you’re equivocating him to Trump is frankly ridiculous.
He’s a capitalist, imperialist, hegemonic proprietor. Sure. Fascist he is not.
He is funding Israel's genocide, that is fascist. He is president of one of the most incarcerated nations in the world. Has he done anything to eliminate the prison industrial complex? He leads the most powerful army in the world.
Democrats do just enough to make it so that liberals don't feel icky about their day to day lives.
Biden should be criticised for not demanding Israel stop unnecessary civilian deaths.
It seems like by this logic every western nation leader who hasn’t directly intervened to stop Israel is a fascist.
Plenty of countries have trade relationships with Israel and are funding their war indirectly.
What I have seen though is that as pressure is applied to Biden on this issue he is more likely to ratchet up pressure on Bibi to rein it in. The same could not be said if Trump were in office.
Again though I ask you, who are you voting for if not Biden?
Yes!!! They are all fascist countries! And there are a few that are taking steps to end it.
Biden is not "failing to stop unnecessary civilian deaths" - this is a Zionist framing that paints the genocide as a just war. It is a genocide and Biden is ARMING the military commiting genocide. Biden is actively involved.
Biden is not pressuring Bibi in any real way whatsoever.
Let me ask you how Biden and the Democratic party are supposed to be held accountable, how are they going to change if people keep voting for them? Because so far they have NOT changed. The strategy of continually voting in lackluster candidates has not gotten us anywhere.
You know fascism has an actual definition right?
If the United States does not seem like a fascist country to you, you are probably very privileged and politically undereducated. We are funding a genocide for an ethnostate. We have a hugely inflated prison population for whom slavery is legal. No country even comes close to the amount of money we spend on the military, look it up it's not even close.
Sure, we have democratic elections, but so does Russia. When the "good guys" win the presidency, the United States is still doing all those things I mentioned.
Lotta hyperbole and angry assumptions about who's privileged and politically uneducated in this conversation.
According to this logic, the US has been a fascist state since WW2 due to its creation of and unwavering support for Israel.
... yes??? yess???!!
And when we had slavery?? (which we continue to have now in our prisons)
And we do torture,
and we assassinate black people when they organize,
we have a huge military worship culture,
and we have so many territories and military bases abroad and have funded so many horrible dictators
How are you not seeing it? Honestly?
Sure. So what do you propose to do next?
The context of this thread is that you're specifically labelling Joe Biden a fascist. Why single him out if it's the whole system and everyone in it?
Exactly, why vote for him? Vote for a third party candidate and stop voting in fascists.
Yeah, I agree that it’s a shit situation and an undesirable choice. But the unfortunate political reality we currently live in is that it’s either Biden or Trump.
Yes, the Biden administration is supplying weapons to Israel that are being used for genocide. Trump has commented that Israel needs to “finish the problem.”
Yes, the Biden administration is turning away asylum seekers on our southern border. Trump has said that migrants are “poisoning the blood” of our nation.
I challenge your last point regarding marijuana convictions: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/10/06/statement-from-president-biden-on-marijuana-reform/
But I will again will contrast that Trump rescinded the Obama-era policy of not pursuing marijuana charges at the federal level in states where it was legal. A clear and significant step backward.
It’s not ”just optics”. Per your source he did pardon 6,500 individuals, which the Last Prisoner Project described as “progress for those eligible for relief.”
Now they do argue that the Biden administration should go further by pardoning 3,000 additional people, which I agree with. But to call this step forward “just optics” is at best disingenuous.
It's not nothing, but it's barely anything. He could also deschedule cannabis.
It’s not nothing, but it’s barely anything.
Tell that to the 6,500 people that got their freedom back.
And I reject your assertion that it’s barely anything: by your source’s count he pardoned 2/3 of the people caught up in these archaic cannabis laws.
Referencing back to OP, would you rather have 2/3 of an ice cream cone or go off a cliff?
He could also deschedule cannabis
No, he likely cannot unilaterally do that: https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/can-president-biden-legalize-marijuana-1220802/
Do you at least acknowledge that slow incremental progress, while admittedly not nearly enough, is definitely better than going backwards?
There are different opinions about who has the power to deschedule cannabis, but Biden has not even tried. He is working on rescheduling, but that seems to be an "incremental step" that would also cause problems
I think that boycotting a vote on Democrats until they adopt leftist politics is a completely valid way to move the party. Republicans have essentially done the same, remember the Tea Party movement? It worked for them. The "incrementalist" approach has left us with a president who won't even say the word Genocide, worse is activity funding genocide.
Here’s the fucking frighting thing, the moderates I know(relatives mostly) hate Biden because of the price of gas and groceries, that he isn’t killing everyone trying to cross the southern border, and believe Trump will be better for America in these crazy times. It’s fucking depressing to hear
This is what I'm saying - the moderates fucking suck and it's not worth trying to win them over. Move the party left, the zombified vote-blue-no-matter-who Democrats will vote for a more leftist candidate just like they vote for a more moderate candidate.
I agree with your goal and the spirit of what you’re saying completely, but we’re kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. Unless something completely unexpected like multiple age related deaths or a violent revolt happens there are only two candidates with any chance of attaining the office. Which means we have to make a choice. A choice I hate making but I want to continue to make choices in the future so it’s one I have to make.
I do understand that take and desire for harm reduction. I am a trans person and my and my friend's rights are constantly politicized by both parties. But even under Biden, trans people are actively being targeted in certain states, and under Trump, trans rights were strengthened in other states. The president can only (or chooses to only) do so much. But things the president can change include foreign policy, military actions.... so I think refusing to vote for Biden over the issues he has the most direct power over is absolutely appropriate.
I believe that voting third party could enable long term change, and that voting for Biden is perpetuating the system that is already causing so much harm.
Ok so, Trump and the GOP are marching head first into genocidal fascism and you’re naive to think you’ll ever get to vote again if he’s elected. The president only has so much power because it’s checked, that won’t happen this time as the courts are stacked to allow christofascim and both houses of Congress are hamstrung with infighting. Some state govs will resist and I applaud that but it leads us into constitutional crises and in my mind civil war. As a trans person I think you should understand the threat to your very life if Trump regains power in this current political world we exist in. Biden fucking sucks all around but we buy more time with him, which is a shitty comprise, but Trump term two, signals the end of the United States and puts the final nail in the coffin of doing anything to mitigate climate change. Not to mention the dissolution of nato which he’s verbal said he’s inclined to induce, which means the end of Ukraine as a nation and likely a Chinese takeover of Taiwan, is also suspect a rollback in workers rights and more tax cuts for the rich.
A third party vote only matters when the message sent matters to the recipients. The only way it MIGHT is if Biden wins and democracy continues. Because Trump won’t give a good goddamn.
We don’t have the luxury of that right now and I hate it too, but it’s the lot we’ve all fucking drawn.
I think you're thinking fatalistically when we have the capacity to try to change things.
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a civil war sounds overall good? realistically, I don't think there will be a peaceful dissolution to the United States (has this ever historically happened?), and if some states could escape and self-govern, the people in those states might be better off. a constitutional crisis is long overdue. also justifying a vote for the candidate who is funding genocide by saying you want to avoid civil war is kinda hypocritical right? war for thee but not for me?
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SOME people are buying time under Biden, other people in many states are not doing well at all!
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Trump can't dissolve NATO by himself https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/13/politics/congress-trump-nato-what-matters/index.html
the most he can do is defund the military, which would weaken the United States ability to enact NATO obligations. And defunding the military seems good?? If he wants to do that for that weird roundabout reason.
also, the United States is only one of many countries in NATO. the states of Taiwan and Ukraine wouldn't instantly crumble. and you're so concerned about the right to statehood, but you're willing to throw Palestinians under the bus?
- the idea of the third party vote isn't that Trump would care, it's that Democrats would run more leftist candidates in the future and start trying to appease leftists instead of moving more and more to the right.
Ok wow you’re delusional and unrealistic
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a second American civil war would be the most horrific, violent, and bloody war in all of human history and the species let along civilization would have very little chance at surviving again. Secondly if you think trump will stop Israel from genociding I have a bridge in Arizona. Biden hasn’t been funding Israel for 70 years we the American people have. Trump funded Israel when he was president. Yeah we’ll all be better off when there are insane Christian warlords sacrificing people to the Lord in Tennessee. Totally makes it seem like you have a foot in the reality of what a war within the US would look like
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so are those people that aren’t going to be saved by Trump? Things will get better if you spite vote?
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all Trump has to do is order the US military out, the rest of nato won’t do shit to enforce that because the US has the largest military and without it nato is horribly undermanned and would collapse in a domino fashion. You’re fooling yourself here. These are all things written on paper, fascists don’t give a fuck about shit like that
- What the fuck does that matter if Dems never gain power again, which Trump will ensure doesn’t happen, as he’s pledged to go after his enemies
I’m done here and you’re blocked. I don’t have anymore energy to spend on someone so hopelessly deluded about the gravity of our current situation. I honestly hope you’re just a bad faith actor. Go to hell, I love you
oh I started to write a thoughtful answer then saw you blocked me.
You are the one who is hopelessly deluded about the gravity of our situation. Under Biden, we are already living under a totalitarian, racist, transphobic government. A civil war is a hypothetical, the genocide is actually actively happening right now with funding that Biden approved. Many Democrats have expressed enthusiastic support for Israel's violence.
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you’re naive to think you’ll ever get to vote again if he’s elected.
he was elected before and we've had votes since then.
A third party vote only matters when the message sent matters to the recipients.
if biden wins, he can't possibly lose another election, so nothing would matter to him. but i reject outright the labeling of any party as "third party" or the idea that it's supposed to send a message different from any other vote. when you vote, you are saying who you want to have the position. i don't want biden to have it, so i won't be voting for him.