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Do you agree that there’s a difference between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas?
Hard to tell at this point. Hamas flags, people cosplaying as Hamas, people saying October 7 was justified. Antisemitism is becoming more and more commonplace. Protests at synagogues, attacks on Jewish businesses.
The Palestinian movement hasn't made a whole lot of effort in clearly denouncing Hamas. If it were a non-violent resistance movement, then I wouldn't hesitate to support it. But it's not a non-violent movement.
I've had many conversations with Palestinian supporters on Lemmy and they've convinced me it's a fascist movement. Almost the exact same conversations as I've had with MAGAs, just with a different target for their hatred.
Alright.
Firstly, I think a lot of how you're framing the pro-Palestine protests is either unfair or inaccurate. That's not to say that you are being unfair or inaccurate, but the sources where you get your information might be. (I will agree that antisemitism is on the rise, and demands a response. I just see more of it from the right, even from Zionists who either want to remove diasporic Jews or support a model of an ethnostate). So, if you don't draw a distinction between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas, there's no conversation to be had, because we're not really dealing with what protestors do, say, or believe. While you compared this to MAGA, it's the exact same rhetoric used by MAGA to attack BLM, which itself mirrored the rhetoric used against the Civil Rights Movement.
But it's also not worth getting into the weeds unless we can find some common ground, so I'd like to ask you the same question again: Is it bad when Israel kills civilians?
It's kinda like the old saw "the best argument for gun control is a five minute conversation with a gun-rights advocate".
The best argument against the Palestinian movement is a conversation with a "free Palestine" type.
Are you saying you haven't noticed the antisemitism in this movement? Or are you just looking the other way?
I think a lot of how you’re framing the pro-Palestine protests is either unfair or inaccurate.
Is it bad when Israel kills civilians?
Begging the question. Ever consider that you're framing of Israel is either unfair and inaccurate? Civilian casualties are always bad, but you're not framing it being civilian casualties in a war. Because that leads us back to how this war started, which was the genocidal acts committed by Hamas on October 7. But you don't frame it as civilian casualties in a war, you frame it as "Israel killing civilians." As if it's impossible for any of the bullets and rockets fired by Hamas to kill a Palestinian.
This is entirely a propaganda thing. Thinking solely in terms of "framing" and refusing to think about certain facts which are inconvenient to the narrative that you've chosen to subscribe to. You think in terms of framing, but I'm thinking in terms of facts. Hamas deliberately killed as many people they could, except for the people they took hostage. They took hostages to force Israel into a ground war in Gaza. And the war continues on because Hamas refuses to release those hostages. Those are facts, but since it's inconvenient to the "Israel kills civilians" narrative and screams about genocide you'll just go on pretending Israel is the bad guy while Hamas holds Israeli civilians hostage, which is a war crime and the reason why this war (along with the civilian casualties associated with a war urban combat) drags on.
I am perfectly happy with how I presented myself, actually. And I think you also revealed a lot about yourself, too. If you're happy with what that is, then that's all there is to it.
I do think it's worth pointing out that the thing that really seemed to set you off was asking you the same question you asked me. I answered it easily, and you took great offense while hurling insults and misrepresenting positions I've already put down in words. Why should I get into the facts when you don't really care about the facts, or what I have to say?
If the question of whether Israel killing civilians is bad (not even unjustified, not even criminal, just bad) bothers you... maybe that's a good thing. I certainly have no problem supporting Palestine while condemning Hamas, or supporting Jews while condemning Israel. It's possible you just didn't want to voice an unpopular position, but maybe it bothers you that you can't say "yes, it's bad." If that's the case, keep pulling on that thread. I think you could use some self-reflection, especially given this last post. I'm sorry, but this was a lot of the pot calling the kettle black.
I sincerely hope you have a better tomorrow. I know you're angry and frustrated, but I hope you can find peace and understanding.
Just wanna say this was an incredibly measured, rational, empathetic, teaching moment.
Reminds me of my college seminar professors.