What is the Israel thing going on?

I said this in another thread and I will say it again here:

I always find it odd how people blame “extremists” and the Palestinians for this.

Israel starts to steal homes, land and killing men, children and women. No one bat an eye to that.

Then extremists and hate towards Israel came and bam, they are the bad ones suddenly.

Certainly what Hamas does is entirely wrong however - People cannot expect them be silent and get killed by Israeli forces.

This is what happens from decades upon decades of oppression.

This entire conflict was created by Israel stealing land and starting a genocide mission on Palestinians.

Yes when you kill other humans intentionally you are depraved. Doesn't matter if you are american, Israeli, Chinese, or Palestinian.

Yes you can be oppressed and wronged.

Both can be true.

But the murderous part is your own decision. It needn't be the only one.
I wish it was you that died at that festival rather than my people.
- That’s okay! Wishing is a good thing. However I’m glad blocking exists on Lemmy.
  
  EDIT: Would like to add on this, that it is kind of sad and unfortunate that you do not have a counter argument or even at least a valid one and thus you have to resort to such a thing.
I am pretty sure the entire conflict started because arabs deny the right of Israel to exist tho
- Nope.
  
  Before WW1 the area was inhabited by Arabs and controlled by the Ottomans.
  
  During WW1, the Brits promised the Arabs an independent state of Palestine, if they revolt against the Ottomans and kick them out, which they did.
  
  The Brits, being Brits, did what Brits do and kept control over that area, now called Mandatory Palestine, and wanted to keep controlling that area "until such time as they are able to stand alone".
  
  So this area was very much promised to the people who lived there for centuries.
  
  At the same time, Zionist Jews wanted their own national state, and antisemites in Europe wanted the same, as long as that meant that the Jews where far away from Europe. So this unlikely alliance between Jews and Antisemites first looked at moving the Jews to Uganda, which was also controlled by the Brits. That plan fell through, and instead they promised them modern-day Israel. Of course without asking the natives who they promised the area too.
  
  So lots of Jews moved there, which the natives didn't like. Both sides mounted a bigger insurrection, until the UN, again without asking the natives, decided to split up the area between Jews and Palestinians.
  
  The local arab population, aided by Jordan and Egypt, started a war, that Israel won. Israel then annexed a lot of land, that, according to the UN plan was promised to the Palestinians and since then they occupied the areas and ruled with an iron fist there. For each Israeli killed, they kill 20 Palestinians. Palestinians are not allowed to leave the area and Israel randomly turns off water, electricity and food supplies, whenever they feel like it.
  
  Claiming "it's just because Arabs don't like Israel" is pretty one-sided.
  
  What happened there is pretty much every right-extremist-conspiracy-theorist's fever nightmare. A huge amount of foreign settlers immigrating, taking away land and supressing the local population. But instead of this being conspiracy nonsense that right-wing extremists spew to cause fear, it really happened there. And it was even much worse than the right-wing fear phantasies.
  
  I agree with almost everything you said, except the first paragraph. Jews were living in that area for thousands of years, it's not like they been dropped to a completely new territory.
  
  So they did have historic ties with that land
  
  Yes, there was a tiny minority of Jews in the area during Ottoman rule. But it was fewer people than Christians there. And almost all of the Jews that moved there to found Israel had no connection to the land at all.
Israel starts to steal homes, land and killing men, children and women.

Can I get a source for this? I've been living under a rock.
- Israel killing children in 2022: https://www.savethechildren.net/news/2022-becomes-deadliest-year-palestinian-children-west-bank-over-15-years-save-children Israel taken over houses: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/4/if-i-dont-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says
  
  There was a few years ago before Pandemic about a Palestinian guy getting arrested for talking to an journalist regards his house been taken over by Israeli people. I will try to find that one as well. It was big on the news (at least in my country back then).
  
  Thanks for the input. I haven't been following this story closely.
- https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-samsung-rvo1&source=android-browser&q=israel+territory+over+time

why were they having a music festival next to a concentration camp?

No idea, but what I do know is that it's not a justification for murdering them.
- lol there is literally zero proof of this.
  
  all sources are directly from the IDF.
  
  news sites are already retracting their stories of it.
  
  did you also believe the lie that babies were pulled out of incubators to drag us into the Iraq war?
  
  BBC, CNN, ABC, etc aren't retracting articles. Seems like you're just making shit up
  
  where is the proof?
  
  Sorry bud, that's cute, but you don't get to where's the proof me after literally making shit up. You want the proof? Try your fucking eyes. You sound like a holocaust denier.
  
  https://news.yahoo.com/idf-says-wont-back-claim-150213726.html
  
  hmmmmmm
  
  and you sound like a TV race American that can be manipulated by the slightest bit of propaganda into supporting anything
  
  Literally an unrelated article... you're gonna have to do better than that bucko. Have you ever critically thought about anything in your life? Are you even capable of reading headlines? If you could you would know that article has nothing to do with the music festival massacre...
  
  oh sorry, that was a different fake story.
  
  Oh sorry, I'm too stupid to read
  
  Zero proof? Except the actual videos, you mean?

They attacked and defeated a huge number of military targets as well, which has been heavily downplayed in the Western News media I've seen.

Israel is bad for committing genocide.

Palestinians are apparently bad for not wanting to be genocided.

Close.

Israel was and is bad for committing genocide.

Hamas is bad for doing a terrorism

Palestinians are apparently bad because the government the majority of them didn't vote for is bad.

The true victims of this war, as always, are the civilians
Hamas is a bad palestinian group.

But palastine minus hamas really holds no fault. Israel is the antagonist between the two nations.

Hamas just just a terrorist response to that. And while terrorism is always bad, israel did actively cultivate that terror group.
- Huh, interesting take. I guess Israel minus the settler hardliners is as unfaulty.
  
  Meh... Israel helped make Hamas big, way before they were known as Hamas. Back then they just were an offshoot of the egyptian Muslim Brotherhood organisation. Fatah was/is secular and Israel sought to utilize islamist organizations agaibst Fatah, who they saw as their main opponent. And it worked. There was violence between secular and islamist palestinian organisations.
  
  But -shock horror- the islamists turned out to be a greater threat to israel than the secular fatah.
  
  It's a little like 9/11. I vehemently disavow and condemn the attacks. But on the other hand, you kinda made your own bed so to speak.
- Palestinians have a UN recognized right to armed struggle. How do you recommend they carry that out?
  
  Do you mean palestinians in general? Or do you specifically mean hamas?
  
  Cause the answer is different depending.
  
  How do you recommend that Palestinians engage in armed struggle?
  
  Probably by fighting actual soldiers, not bombing civilians and kidnapping children.
  
  Do you recognize the bombing of Hiroshima as a war crime?
  
  Yeah, that was messed up.
  
  Is there any war that was fought in a way you find acceptable?
  
  I don't know enough about wars to say there was any that was completely squeaky clean, but there's a spectrum. Like, Britain killing Germans in WWII probably wasn't as bad as what Japanese soldiers did in Nanjing. It was bad, but not as bad.
  
  lmaaaaooo
  
  So, specifically palestinians in general?
  
  I think based on what little I know of the region and the style of invasion, guerrilla tactics would likely be ideal. Finding some sort of ally on the global stage to help them argue their case against israels abundant political backing. Make the occupation as inconvenient for israels government as possible, while doing everything they can to shift the global publics opinion into sympathy for their fight.
  
  think based on what little I know of the region and the style of invasion, guerrilla tactics would likely be ideal.
  
  The current engagement is largely guerilla tactics against military installations.
  
  Finding some sort of ally on the global stage to help them argue their case against israels abundant political backing. Make the occupation as inconvenient for israels government as possible, while doing everything they can to shift the global publics opinion into sympathy for their fight.
  
  This is not armed struggle. The Palestinians have a right to armed struggle.
  
  The current engagement bombed a music festival.
  
  That is absolutely part of armed struggle. Look at ukraine, and how its usage of global opinion saved it from a 2 week slaughter fest by giving it the backing of US intelligence. Ukraine perfectly demonstrated how, if you are the underdog losing the war, being able to shift global public opinion of your situation can literally save your life.
  
  Instead, they alienated every nation who had a civilian at that event, gave israel an excuse to declare war and openly genocide their people instead of hide it in inches, made it racially charged by immediately releasing a statement blaming zionist jews and calling for jewish extinction, and gave their political opponents across the globe free and easy ammunition to shut up any pro palestine rhetoric or talking points.
  
  Hamas really fucked up. They gave anti palestine sentiment a free scapegoat target. They are lucky spain is taking the charge to try and distance palestine from hamas on the global stage, because its going to be even harder to shake israel of its massive global backing that it relies on in order to hold on to power.
  
  I sympathize with palestine. Israels government is run by monsters. But this action may be the spark israel needed to burn palestine to the ground, and its very very very hard to un-bomb civilians.
  
  A music festival on the edge of the world's largest open-air prison is not a neutral event.
  
  Courting public opinion is not armed struggle.
  
  We agree that Palestinians have a right to armed struggle, right?
  
  How do you recommend they go about that?
  
  Hahahahahahaha, what??? Proximity to a prison doesnt make it a military target. They would have fucked up just as bad if they attacked the prison. Civilians are still civilians even when you disagree with how they spend their time. Unless you think the bombing of hiroshima was justified?
  
  You were already given an answer. Repeating the question means I will repeat my answer. If you dont understand how the global stage is now a part of armed warfare, you are behind every armed force on the planet.
  
  You comment that you are a fucked up person if you find it ok to kill civilians.
  
  Without raping and murdering civilians, to start? Fuck Israel, but that doesn't make Hamas the good guys.
  
  Is there a war that you think was fought justly?
  
  Oh fuck off with that hexbear lemmygrad shit. I'm not talking about war as some nebulous concept, I'm saying raping and killing civilians is bad regardless of if you've been wronged or not. If that's a controversial opinion to you, I have nothing more to discuss.
  
  And in every real war that has been fought, including the allies in WW2, heinous shit has happened.
  
  Do the war crimes of the allies in WW2 mean that they were wrong to fight?
  
  Ah yes, I forgot about that time Churchill bombed a German music festival and raped the survivors.
  
  See, that's the exact kind of whataboutism I'm talking about. Two wrongs don't make a right, and frankly I suspect the only reason you give a shit is because hating Israel is such a hot tankie talking point right now.
  
  Let me guess, Palestine needs to throw off its oppressors, but Russia's invasion of Ukraine was a totally justified military operation?