Ukraine tells critics of slow counteroffensive to 'shut up'

It's like every time there's a war everybody forgets how fucking long they take. WW2 took six years. The Vietnam War took almost 20 years, same with the Afghanistan War. Anybody expecting anything solid within the next couple years is delusional. Ukraine is in it for the long haul.
- That's not strictly true. On the short end, there was the six-day war. On the long end, there was the hundred years' war.
  Putin was clearly aiming for the short option, but then I suppose most belligerents usually are.
  
  I'd actually love to see a graph that shows the distribution of lengths of various wars
  
  The Anglo-Zanzibar War lasted less than an hour
  
  Dude took the low end and said "fuck that we'll do it twice as fast."
  The good news is I don't think Russia can continue to sustain these kind of losses for 199 more years.
- And Russia expected their little venture to be done in days.
  
  It was never supposed to turn into a real war. They wanted to assassinate Zelenskyy put some Russian plant in as president, annex some more land and call it a night. Obviously Zelenskyy survived and the rest is history.
- Frontlines were actually moving, especially in the Eastern Front. Not so much in China and the Pacific, though.
- We can hope Putin dies from being an old fuck and Russia gives up
  
  The US is on its last legs though. It badly needed this win. The US falls before Putin dies.
- That's because it isn't really about any particular military objective, it's about creating business for the war industry.
- “We’ll fight til the last Ukrainian!”
  libs
  
  "We shouldn't help the rape victim and they should hope that it's over quickly. Also, it's actually not rape, it's a special sexual operation and they deserved it." - Tankies
  
  support
  
  There’s a lot of angry liberals replying to your post, so I thought I’d link a great video on how/why the war in Ukraine came to be:
  https://youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8&si=gaMRzFwo5JP5RzeD
  This channel is leftist but they aren’t communists, as far as I know.
  Tldw: This war was completely avoidable. Had the US/NATO kept its promise to not expand eastward none of this would have happened. Even Biden said that 25 years ago. Americans groomed certain Ukrainians for political office, and prevented others from running. There was an opportunity to end the war last year on somewhat decent terms for Ukraine, but Boris Johnson rushed in to stop it from happening, promising massive support. But war exhaustion has caught up and Ukraine is running out of people, and western leaders are already starting to call for the end of the war — except this time it will be on russias terms and Ukraine is going to get fucked. Big western capitalists have had their fingers in this pie because there’s a lot of money to be made in the country. That’s it.
  Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that Putins invasion was a horrific, imperialist move. Any commie you see protesting the war isn’t doing it because they support Russia (Russia is a capitalist country), they’re doing it because they don’t support NATO. We are often the makers of our own enemies here in the west. Viet Cong, Taliban, ISIS, and Russia were all created or shaped by western (mainly US) policies.

You know what? I never thought I'd say this but I'm with Ukraine on this one.
This whole counter offensive insanity is so militarily nonsensical that it had to have been mounted to please the West with a "win" so that they'd stay in the war. Real Chiang Kai Shek committing the best of the KMT army to Shanghai to impress the Westerners energy.
The West is standing on the sidelines, supplying just enough equipment to keep the embers going and judging the ordinary Ukrainians going to their deaths by their hundreds.
Fuck the clowns in charge in Kiev and fuck the Nazi militias obviously. But at this point the men being sent to the front are old men and boys dragged off the street against their will. Sending them to die to appease the West is fucking sick.
- from the moment they realized Kyiv wouldn't be lost in a week
  Goes back way longer than that, at least to 2014.
- This got an upvote?
  Are you open to proposing your master plan?
  Ukraine has been invaded. Are you suggesting they do not fight back?
  NATO is not war. No NATO country has been attacked. Engaging against Russia directly would put NATO at war with a nuclear power. I cannot imagine that this is your plan.
  Not just “the West”, but everybody is on the sidelines as far as direct engagement goes. Most countries are assisting Ukraine where they can. Some to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. Most have imposed crippling sanctions. So. “sidelines” is a bit misleading from that perspective.
  Even Russia’s allies are “on the sidelines”. You certainly do not see much overt support from China. They have even maintained ( in fact stepped-up ) diplomatic relation with Ukraine.
  Or are you trying to imply that the underlying cause of everything here is something other than Russia’s continued invasion? Everybody could truly go back to the sidelines if Russia just left.
  The only other path is for Ukraine to win. Are you supporting that or not?
  
  If your goal is to prevent deaths, surrendering would have been the ideal yeah.
  Zelenksy tried to surrender to prevent further deaths, and Boris Johnson refused to let that meeting happen because NATO isn't finished using Ukranians as crash test dummies.
  
  What do you mean by not just the west?
  We have almost zero countries on Asia, Africa and Latin America which have sanctioned Russia or sent military aid to Ukraine
  This is just related to nato/Europe/global north countries.
  Europe is not the whole world
  
  Ukraine has plenty of opportunities to win. It could have chosen to chart a more balanced position between the EU and Russia. It could have given the Donbass some independence referenda and just let them go. It could have actually tried to adhere to the numerous Minsk Agreements to deescalate and prevent war. It could have negotiated for peace while the Russians were pulling back after its previously more successful counter offensives.
  But each time its leaders ignored the off ramp to peace and pursued delusional maximalist goals, egged on by promises of EU and NATO membership which even Zelensky acknowledged publically were just carrots dangled in front of Ukraine.
  Now there's no pathway to any sort of Ukrainian victory and the most realistic scenarios all involve Ukraine permanently giving up Donbas and Crimea. The only difference between the likely outcome now and just giving them a referendum in 2014 is a couple hundred thousand Ukrainian graves.
  I'd respect the EU and NATO more if they had actually followed through with their promises to Ukraine instead of this Charlie Brown football bullshit.
  
  Most countries are assisting Ukraine where they can.
  Always the same map
  
  For the copypasta. You really distilled a lot of liberal brainworms down with good comedic timing.
  
  Most countries are assisting Ukraine where they can.
  lmao here i am living in a 200 million people country where nobody gives a single fuck about ukraine
  even more political groups and discussions rarely involve ukraine except when lula decides to own zelensky in some way, no one here cares about nato's proxy war
  
  Do you know even how many countries there are?

- Wasn't it confirmed by Ukrainian Air Force that The Ghost of Kyiv is an urban legend?
  Sources cited on Wikipedia: one two three
  
  I'm sorry to say that you've fallen for the classic blunder. Assuming the Hexbear you're responding to is not doing a bit. We've all been there, don't worry
  
  Ukraine also hasn't received any F 35s, it's a bit.
- I wish I knew what the shortfalls are in the training program.

The comment threads here are weird. Who, in their right mind, would ever support a country like Russia? It's mind blowing.
- Tankies.
  
  Deride us as woke next.
  
  Tankies.
  I am very smart
  
  You rang?
  
  Enjoy your servitude in the crumbling empire
- It's not supporting Russia to be critical of one-sided narratives or to call for peace for the sake of minimizing loss of life.
  
  Russia is welcome to GTFO at any time.
  
  Ohh won't someone think of the poor invading war criminals!
  
  So you’d want peace by Ukraine giving up its territory?
  How about peace talks that involve Russia giving back all Ukrainian lands (including Crimea) and pulling all troops out.
- Get out of your bubble. The majority of the world supports Russia. It's an uncommon view in Europe/USA, but common everywhere else.
  Also, being anti NATO expansion doesn't mean you support Russia. That is a reductive world view.
  
  Regardless of how many despots find Putin's approach appealing, it remains fundamentally wrong.
  
  Well thankfully most of the powerful (economically and militarily) nations support Ukraine. You’re the one in a bubble.
- I think it's bad for thousands of ukrainians to die in war they cannot win, which they do not want to fight, purely so NATO can accomplish some esoteric geopolitical goal, but that's just me
  
  I'd say they're doing much better than you hoped
- BRICS. Even if they don’t necessarily support Russia it may just be an opportunity to take shots at the West.
- Tankies claim to not be supporting Russia but only point out issues with Ukraine and believe every bit of info that comes out of Russia.
  
  Hexbear never criticizes Russia except for all the times we criticize Russia https://hexbear.net/post/278334
- It's a whole subculture. I don't know, I can think of weirder conspiracy theories with a following.
- Hexbear.net is a Russian nationalist instance... They've grown up under Putin's cencorship and state media brainwashing.
  
  Lmao new tagline dropped.
  No one on hexbear supports Russia, it's a neoliberal hellscape that's somehow even worse than the us on LGBTQ rights. We just dont uncritically consume state department propaganda.

There sure are a lot of Lemmy bro-gaders and NATO shillbots in this thread. That's the only explanation for people disagreeing with me.
- Literally anyone who disagrees with me is by definition a bot running out of a basement in Langley VA.
  
  Don't be ridiculous! Sometimes they're running on the Hilldawgs server.
- Theyre parodying a droney.
- Seems to be an equal amount if not more Putin shillboys happy to amplify the Russian propaganda machine here too!
  
  Lmao I am literally mocking your exact sentiment. People disagreeing with you does not mean they're bots or paid to post. Get out of your echo chamber
- New drinking game. You take a shot everytime some hexbear pops into another instance and posts any comment that:
  Is positive towards Russia, China, or the DPRK.
  Is negative towards NATO
  Is genocide apologetics, or dismisses human rights violations by current or former communist countries as fake or not something to worry about
  Garanteed to kill you before the day is over.
  
  Yeah, take a shot every time one of us dirty commies denies the existence of Saddam's WMDs. The biggest propaganda machine in history would never lie about it's rivals.
  
  Is genocide apologetics, or dismisses human rights violations by current or former communist countries as fake or not something to worry about
  USA whould never lie just forgot
  The USS maine
  Guld of tonkin
  Nayirah testimoney
  WMD
  Gaddafis Viagra
  
  Brigading is clicking on the article that is on the top of all
  
  Why is it inherently bad to be negative towards NATO and good to be positive towards Russia, China or the DPRK? I thought you guys liked nuance.
  I have yet to see anyone do genocide apologetics or dismiss human rights violations. Thinking critically and investigating claims is a good thing, and you thinking otherwise shows how pathetic you are.
  New drinking game:
  Take a shot when libs call people disagreeing with them "brigading"
  Take a shot when libs use the word Tankie or authoritarian without being able to define them.
  Take a shot when libs fail to provide a source.
  Take a shot when the only source they can provide is Wikipedia, Kiev independent or Radio Free ____
  Take a shot when they do double genocide theory.
  Take a shot when they use bigoted language.
  Take a shot when they act like smug little shits and then cry foul when they get treated like smug little shits.
  
  How dare anyone be negative towards the belligerent arms cartel that has had its hand in multiple coup governments, and destroyed numerous countries.
  You all act so offended by people not swallowing your narrative.
  
  And if you want to die from alcohol poisoning in an hour then just take a drink every time a dronie moans when people point out basic facts to them.
  
  Why would you do that? How does it sound funny to you that US propaganda is so important to you that you would poision yourself if you weren't surrounded by it? It get you were trying to make a joke but the joke is that, " if I encounter anything other than US propaganda I need to self harm so I don't acknowledge it."
  It is just wild to me that you exist in a state where this seems like a banger post.

HexBear and brigading yet another Ukraine thread with misinformation and Kremlin propaganda, name a more iconic duo.
EDIT: It appears that I've triggered the horde.
- Are the Hexbear users who are saying Ukraine is being ungrateful repeating Kremlin propaganda or are the Hexbear users who are saying Ukraine has a point repeating Kremlin propaganda?
  Is Kremlin propaganda just ontologically what a Hexbear user says?
  
  nice to know whatever I say is the kremlin position.
  
  But I dont see hexbears saying Ukraine is being ungratef... Oh. I see.
  :P
  
  I'm referring to the concerning number of users from your instance who seem obsessed with parroting what has been confirmed to be Kremlin propaganda and lies spread through deliberate misinformation campaigns. Obviously, this isn't all HexBear users, but you guys clearly have a general problem with this kind of stuff.
  
  Russia is going to strive for world-standard lgbt+ equality initiatives and to implement OGAS for once and for all
- Libs and calling responding to a post that pops up on our feed "brigading"
  Libs and calling claims with citations and references "propaganda"
  
  I'm a socialist, but go off king.
- It's the second post on our /all/ page?
  You've all got to get used to the way federation works. Because everyone is federated with different instances the /all/ page is different for different instances. This means that when a thread reaches /all/ on a specific instance you will get a lot of their users showing up at the same time. This is true of all the large instances, lemm.ee and lemmy.ml pour into our threads all at once when they reach the top of their feeds, but it's different for every site so you get this outcome where a lot happens all at once.
  
  So basically this is going to cause a world War of social media echo chambers
- When we talk amongst ourselves we're an echo chamber.
  When we talk to other people we're brigading.
- 'Brigading is when you federate and then use the federation feature. I am very smart.'
- Welcome to federation, enjoy your stay
  
  welcome to federation. we can tell you to fuck off and kill yourself too tankie.
- You Then: post something bad and untrue about Hexbear
  You Now: Why are all these Hexbears commenting on my post?
- Daily reminder that we all see this pop up on our feed too and you're going to have a higher quantity of people from other federated instances commenting by virtue of their being more of them active. No one is getting pings telling them it's time to go to X thread and post Y take, that's just a main character mindset people get into when they want to think they're the underdog and the 'other side' isn't playing fair.
- Yet another liberal bot brigade spewing nato talking points
  
  they got them poor langley interns down the postin mines workin overtime i tell ya hwaht
- rent free
  
  you're the one posting fuckface, kys
- It's funny seeing the replies to your comment crying about "not brigading" but then the vast majority of the comments in this post come from hexbear users commenting tankie shit
  
  Everybody who disagrees with me is a brigader
  
  Could it be active users of this platform are organically posting in this thread????
  No, i don't agree with them, so they're brigading
  
  commenting tankie shit
  remind me what the ml in this comm name refers to
  
  Are the brigades in the room with us right now?
  
  It's almost as if they completely lack self-awareness.
  
  Brigading is when you engage with others
- Easy way to trigger them:
  Ahem...
  "Human Rights"
  
  Human rights like food, shelter and breathable air, right?
  
  Right?
- Interesting, I'm not seeing the hexbears... has my instance blocked them or has hexbear blocked me?
  It's kinda a nothing of value lost kinda situation, just curious about why I'm not seeing them any more.
  
  Yea, they're defederated from your instance. You can check it out in the instances list of each instance under "blocked", here's yours: https://lemmy.ca/instances
  
  Well I might be moving instances...
  The moron brigadie is getting old.
- Keep throwing out baseless accusations. That's always the smartest thing to do when you're wrong.
- Thank you for your sacrifice, now we can just mass block them :)
  
  Nice echo chamber you've got there
- Apparently the thread's got 117 comments, but only yours is showing. Don't they have anything better to do? Seriously...
  
  Apparently no 🤷
- Ah yes, famous Kremlin propaganda as reported by mainstream western media.

Everyone point & laugh at the sad tankie in this thread.
- Damn we don't see them on blahaj :<
  
  Lucky
  
  Has blahaj banned hexbear?
  
  I can always tell when I’m browsing Lemmy from my lemm.ee account vs lemmy.world by the sheer number of tankies spouting nonsense.
- the most intellectually advanced liberal has logged on
- Any actual rebuttal or just gonna roll out the usual libshit jab and run along? America has blood on its hands for a lot of things, it found out once and might find out again if it isn't careful.
  
  What exactly do you think it found out?
  
  Make yourself like the USSR and make yourself scarce.

doing my duty by brigading (commenting on the number 1 post on all)

No shit. Western training and equipment is not fit for purpose. Acting as a colonial cop by bombing with impunity ≠ attacking the strongest defensive lines of the 21st century. All their wunderwaffe just gets blown up by mines or drones.
- Cannot wait to see how well this comment ages. All the Hexabear stuff is just comedy gold in the long run. Thank you for spending your life force creating it.
  
  Cannot wait to see how well this comment ages. All the Hexabear stuff is just comedy gold in the long run. Thank you for spending your life force creating it.
  Can't imagine thinking commentary, wrong or right, about brutal trench warfare, could be comedy gold.
  
  Yeah, Ukraine is really going to retake those two oblasts and Crimea. It will all be worth all the hundreds of thousands of lives thrown into the meatgrinder instead of honoring two ceasefires or negotiating a new ceasefire when that happens.
  
  Real Hitler in his bunker energy, except instead of Hitler youre a nazi in some other country not directly involved coping about how Germany can still win.
  
  Thousands of dead for no good reason is "comedy gold"?
  
  Embarrassing
  
  The people telling you Ukraine is winning are lying to you. They don't believe it. Ukraine doesn't have enough equipment or enough soldiers.
  The Wests only hope is a Russian coup. They'll force every Ukrainian they can to die to try and make this happen. You cheer this death march on from the sidelines.
  If you actually give a shit, go fight for Ukraine. If you don't have the courage to die with them, then you have no right to advocate for continuing this war.
  
  How is the ghost of Kiev doing
  
  Lmao 4 months in and this comment already didn't age very well, with even outlets like NYT starting to report the truth about Ukraine's offensives going terribly.
  Also, I wouldn't call thousands of people dying for meaningless western imperialism/NATO expansion "comedy gold"

Pretty telling that the new line being fed to NATO worshippers is 'don't say anything critical about our objective failures'. This is, ironically, the same message Goebbels pushed when failures began to mount on the eastern front after Stalingrad and then Kursk. As the Soviet steamroller continued to Berlin, the line in the media was 'it is unpatriotic to say we are losing'. And then they lost.
- hasn't that been the line the whole time?
- lol go away tankie lunatic
  
  Smartest liberal counter argument.

Somewhere in the Pentagon there surely must be a series of rooms isolated for this war. In them intelligence is gathered, counterparts in Ukraine can be in instant contact, resources from both armies are tracked, tactics are formulated, simulations are run. How do I know this? Because this would be too good of a learning opportunity to pass up.
And those folks ain't talking.
- Well that and because its a US proxy war. With Ukrainians being slaughtered to further US goals
  
  Gee...lookee there...an uninformed rant. And what is that goal?
- For sure. Thinking of this war as a giant test ground for defense industry ghouls to experiment on is horrifying
  
  The US has had its weapons used in conflicts for years. Yes, they do what they're supposed to do. Not much to learn, really.
- All those folks in the 50+ age group that grew up with "Russia is enemy #1" are probably cycling through waves of intense work and prolonged orgasm.
  I wouldn't be surprised if one of the first things considered in strategizing any armed conflict is whether they want Russia and China to know that we have X or are capable of Y. Russia has shown their hand. If they could do more, they would have by now.
  It has also taught NATO that Russia is still in the barbaric tactics mindset. Hospitals, schools, churches, shipping centers - they're all valid targets. If Russia wants a position, they'll level the entire town. That certainly changes the plans, of anyone thought they would abode by the Geneva Conventions.
  
  All those folks in the 50+ age group that grew up with "Russia is enemy #1" are probably cycling through waves of intense work and prolonged orgasm.
  The ones that haven't suddenly decided that Russia is our best friend all of a sudden for some reason that I still can't figure out. This is even considering that Russia was found to have been paying out bounties on dead American soldiers, or that they had people assassinated in the UK. Certainly it should be a disqualifier that Russia isn't a true Democracy and had Putin's political opponents jailed. Two Democracies won't directly start a conflict against each other, but that doesn't hold up between Democracies and non-Democracies.
  My hope is that as Russia runs out of money and organization to fund overseas psyops, the sheen will wear off.
  
  The Russians have less tactics and capabilities than NATO thought. Now it is a matter of how quickly they can be overwhelmed should it come to it. Their big problem is mid level command.
  
  It has also taught NATO that Russia is still in the barbaric tactics mindset.
  Oh those backwards Russians, still stuck in the past, where they were just a bunch of barbarian hordes. I assume the West, by contrast, has developed a civilized kind of warfare, as befitting their superior civilized culture? That's what you're saying, right?
  The civilized West would never... oh yeah they would and they did, repeatedly, and it was worse actually in e.g. Iraq. So all this "barbarism" shit is just racism with no basis in reality.
- Someone should go bunker-hunting as a 'lost urbex enthusiast' and put them on a map. Maybe some backchannel archive in case they go 'missing'. Once the list/map goes public, thousands of unmissed tech sociopaths turn to pink mist overnight.
- the whole world is sending people to become veterans so they can return with their experience and become trainers.

Cold weather begins to hit in October. It's not just "slow", it's over.

Haters gonna hate. Still though, they'll need to be cordial if some of these critics are also paying Ukrainian bills. Being rude is the fast track to falling out of favor with foriegn taxpayers.
- Have you seen how Israel conducts diplomacy with the US?
  
  Well Zelensky did say that he was inspired by Israel and wanted to model Ukraine to be like Israel.
- They’re tired and weary from the onslaught of war fringe to safe their country from Putins aggression. Any dig at their progress is a dig at morale that spreads not only through the ranks, but also to the general public. There is a time for constructive criticism, but that should be done in private with actual solutions offered by those criticizing. I understand their needs to be some decorum but you can’t blame them for what I would consider a mild retort as their countrymen die trying to retake their land everyday.
  
  Yeah, but like, they are their worst countrymen. Nazis and such. No one in the war stands to win anything. They will still pay their landlords and the corrupt banks for the right to live in now freshly burned down houses. Wages will stay super low, the wartime reduction becoming a reconstruction reduction whenever it ends. Anyone from Ukraine who is able to escape the nazis ought to defect to Russia where they would be taken care of a little better.
  
  It's not about decorum, it's about the pointless deaths of hundreds of thousands.
  Not trying to hate, but you narrowed in on excusing Ukraine for saying a mean thing to the West and its supporters. Reexamine your priorities.
  
  Well said.

IMO these critics are used to air superiority which Ukraine doesn't have.
- It’s crazy to me that any military doctrine as a base assumption relies on air superiority. How could you ever assume that if facing off against a peer nation? Though I guess with nuclear armament there’s an assumption that you’ll never face off against a peer level natuon
  
  That's what 70 years of exclusively using your military as the enforcers of neo-colonialism does. Turns out what works for leveling a low-tech guerilla hideout in Vietnam or Afghanistan isn't so effective when your opponent has comprehensive SAM networks.
- Regardless being what it is, I wonder why a few A10s couldn't be leased to provide air support.
  Its a plane with little to no cutting edge technology, perfect for ground support and anti armor and entrenched positions.
  
  I agree and have heard stories of Ukrainians already training on them. But, I wonder if depleted uranium ammo might be a problem.
- Yet.
  It'll take some 6 months but then they'll start having air support and soon air superiority.
  However, Ukraine doesn't have 6 months. They don't know how the US election will go, it they will still have an ally in the US. They MUST press on so into the meat grinder they go.
  
  US election is more than a year away though.

Good for Kyiv. Those armchair generals should shut up and fight if they think things are going slowly.

Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

Stop, just please, stop.
- What are you trying to say?
  
  I want this war to stop.

Did I read the same article as everyone else? I don't get where "failed offensive" is coming from. It was western media that created the impression of an impending counter-offensive that would all but end the war, not anything from Ukraine's armed forces as far as I know.
Since launching a much-vaunted counteroffensive using many billions of dollars of Western military equipment, Ukraine has recaptured more than a dozen villages but has yet to penetrate Russia's main defences," .... NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg told CNN that Ukrainian commanders deserved the benefit of the doubt. 'Ukrainians have exceeded expectations again and again," he said. "We need to trust them. We advise, we help, we support. But... it is the Ukrainians that have to make those decisions."
This doesn't sound like a "failed" offensive to me. The "much-vaunted" part came from the West, not Ukraine. It sounds to me like western officials got themselves psyched up based on nothing and are now whining about it. So like, yeah, critics of the slow counteroffensive, shut up. You sound as ridiculous as the people who acted like Kyiv would be taken by March 2022.
- Respectfuly, it is painful to read shit like this from uninformed people.
  Here try googling this "Ukraine counter offensive goal crimea before:2023-07-01"(without quotes), just 3 random examples.
  Zelensky signaled Ukraine’s counteroffensive against Russia is underway. Here’s what to expect
  In terms of its goals, Kyiv has consistently said that it wants to recapture all of the territory controlled by Russia. In an address earlier this year Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said that included Crimea.
  “It is not an intention, it is our land. Crimea is our sea and our mountains,” Zelensky said.
  Ukraine ‘ready’ to talk to Russia on Crimea if counteroffensive succeeds lol lmao
  Ukraine's counteroffensive: Goals, opportunities, risks
  In September 2022, in his only programmatic paper so far, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Lieutenant General Valeriy Zaluzhnyi offered only a rough sketch of how a Ukrainian counteroffensive might look. In the paper, he spoke of "several resolute, ideally simultaneous counterattacks." One strategically crucial target Zaluzhnyi mentioned was the Crimean peninsula, which Russia illegally annexed in 2014. In Kyiv, all agree this is the main direction Ukraine should focus its efforts. But they are also expecting surprises and deceptive maneuvers. Many, however, doubt Ukraine has enough equipment and fighting power to regain the peninsula.
  Even western media tried to downplay it casting doubt from the beginning but the point I highlight is undeniably the planned goal was not achieved and it wont be achieved. Everyone would call that a failure.
  But even the fucking Nazis can't agree on their own narrative and they're just coping now
  Ukraine counteroffensive creeps ahead, measured in blood exactly 2 months ago, July 1st 2023
  Last week, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said the counteroffensive was "slower than desired", without getting too specific. Ukraine says it has recaptured a cluster of villages in operations that liberated 130 square km (50 square miles) in the south, but this is a small percentage of the total territory held by Russia.
  Go tell Zelensky to shut the fuck up, oh wait.
  
  Who are "the fucking Nazis" in your comment?
- billions of dollars of western equipment and they recaptured a dozen villages.
  The Russians have the parts of Ukraine they want and have fortified heavily which leads my analysis of the situation to be that Ukraine recapturing the taken area is not realistic and their goal of getting Crimea on top of that to be completely delusional
  
  The Russians have the parts of Ukraine they want
  This is revisionist. It was clear that Russia's military objectives in invading the rest of the country last year were to remove Zelensky and put back a friendly government to Moscow. They failed, and now are falling back on what was always the more pragmatic and "reasonable" war goal of holding the pre-February 2022 lines of control + what they still have now. But, now that an all-out state of war exists between Ukraine and Russia, it's "allowable" in the eyes of the West for Ukraine to try and regain all of its internationally-recognized territory in a way that it wasn't before.
  ...have fortified heavily which leads my analysis of the situation to be that Ukraine recapturing the taken area is not realistic and their goal of getting Crimea on top of that to be completely delusional
  I don't mean to deride your analysis, but I also do wonder how much analysis some random Hexbear user can really make. I mean, I can look at maps of assessed control from the ISW and I hear about what goes down in some of the more nationalist Russian telegram channels but I deliberately try to avoid anything that makes me sound knowledgeable in military strategy and tactics.
  I will say, that given the general attitude here that we want choices and decisions to be taken that reduce the fighting and scale of death, Ukraine's approach of incrementally retaking villages instead of throwing everything it's got in a mad rush to break Russian lines shouldn't be criticized.
  
  Ukraine needs to get within artillery range of certain major logistical hubs to hamper Russian reinforcement and supply via the southern corridor. And it is close, now. The Russian administrators of Melitopol have already abandoned the place.
  With ATACMS, this would have been easier, fyi.
  Only people who don't understand the situation repeat the sort of thing you are claiming.
  Furthermore, the US aid to Ukraine was mostly stuff that was destined to be decommissioned. The "billions of dollars" is on paper, not in fact. Nothing Ukraine is receiving from the USA is current gen or in use by the US and therefore isn't diminishing the US armed forces. Arguably it's actually increasing US strength, since the USA is now ramping up artillery shell production.
  From a strategic standpoint, destroying the Russian military (estimated around 50% of Russia's MBTs and Airforce) in exchange for stuff you weren't going to use anyway is a bargain.
- Given the substantial losses of men and equipment and the meagre gains I do think it is safe to assume that the counteroffensive does not go as well as Kiev has hoped for.
  
  Totally – but I think in the west, people were conditioned to expect breakneck speeds similar to the initial invasion and push towards Kyiv by Russian forces or the rapid advance last year of Ukrainian troops that pushed out Russians from Kyiv suburbs and northeastern Ukraine.
  In my mind, a "failure" would mean that they gained nothing – not even a few small villages.
- It was western media that created the impression of an impending counter-offensive that would all but end the war, not anything from Ukraine’s armed forces as far as I know.
  Or from NATO generals. At least not as an overall theme, or after actually understanding the situation on the ground.
  I'd say western media recalled the likes of Operation Desert storm, generally "it's not a war but a drubbing" NATO operations, then saw the Kharkiv counter-offensive, missed that the fast mechanised advance was preceded by slogging advances until a breakthrough was achieved, and then expected the same thing to happen against the Surovikin line. Ukraine simply does not have the capacity to employ NATO offensive doctrine, more or less "hit the opposing force so hard in the air that they'll find themselves fighting a land war against air superiority on their whole territory".
  And the Surovikin line which wasn't even the main obstacle as now transpired Russians had positions in literally every single forest belt parallel to the trenches visible from space. And mines, mines literally everywhere, Ukraine turned towards IR imagining to figure out where to best go through them (mines heat up in the sun and are then very visible at dusk).
  Russia, of course, also announced the offensive failed the day it started but that was to be expected.
- This is why you should not defederate hexbear. Good, clean, comment. Just block the troublemakers (it's about 60 of them) and the threads automatically look more cogent.
  
  Am I a troublemaker? I may fit your criteria:
  I don't think NATO should support Ukraine.
  
  anyone who disagrees with me is a troublemaker
- You sound as ridiculous as the people who acted like Kyiv would be taken by March 2022
  I mean, in that case Russia was the much superior force on paper, and it didn't happen because they're more incompetent than was thought possible for anyone. I think you make a good point but this isn't a great comparison.

I wish we would just go ahead and give ATACMs. It would certainly speed things up.
- I'm sure whoever manufactures those is excited by that prospect too. But they've got to get through all the old stock first. Its a military industrial complex clearning house event
  
  Nice shifting from current problems.
- Zurely zis wunderwaffe will defeat zose orcs
  
  Most anglophones have a nazi conception of how to win wars because their governments asked the defeated nazis for advice on how to win wars and that ideology was integrated and trickled down like piss onto the masses.
- I'm following the combat activities (the actual combat, not high level strategic stuff). It's all mines, mines, mines and then some trench warfare.
  No amount of ATACMS can do anything about that. You still have to advance slowly, figure out where the mines are, clean them up or move around them and then take the trenches.
  Drones can do a whole lot more good for a whole lot less.
  
  Where do you follow that?
  
  Have you ever heard of the word "logistic"?
  
  BooOOOOoooo
  “drones AND f16 and ATACMS”
  Yaaay
- I wish they would just go ahead and negotiate a peace
  
  I wish invaders would just get the hell out. Call it tactical retreat, ceasefire, whatever
- Speed up the end of the world maybe. US only hope is revolving Russia or escalation to direct conflict.
- I think that once the F16 training is completed, it will really change the face of the battle field. I assume we are giving them jdams so they will be capable of striking hundreds of miles into occupied territory.
  
  I think that once the ~~HIMARS~~, ~~BRADLEY~~, ~~LEOPARD~~, ~~STORM SHADOW~~, ~~CLUSTER MUNITIONS~~, F16 training is completed, it will really change the face of the battle field
  fast-forward 6 months
  I think that once the F22 training is completed, it will really change the face of the battle field
  I think that once the F35 training is completed, it will really change the face of the battle field
  I think that once the LGM-30G MINUTEMAN III NUCLEAR ICBM training is completed, it will really change the face of the battle field
  
  So 10 years?
  
  Aren't there only a handful of Uke pilots that knew english well enough to do the training? I'm all for sending Ukraine whatever they ask for, but I doubt F-16s will turn the tide

Breaching those lines was never going to be quick, but once breached the line will move quicker.
- The line doesn't need to move quicker, and Ukraine moving slowly and shoring up every meter they take is going to work out better long term. They aren't on a march to invade their lost territory, they are on a march to the Azov sea to cut Russia's only remaining land access to Crimea.
  They are building a wall of men and weapons and once that reaches Azov they only have to defend it - and Ukraine are very good at defence.
  Then the only way Russia has to get anything to Crimea is the Kerch bridge which is almost inevitably going to be destroyed.
- Depends how deep the lines are. They have breached the first line at some points. However as per ukrainians, after the first line is the second line and so on. Russia knows how to make deep defences and anywhere, where they lose one line, they will adjust and start added more lines to the rear to compensate for the lost line. First line lost, second line is now first line, third line is second and so on and add the new Nth line, since the old Nth is now Nth-1 line.
  It will be a slow slug and battering ram fest, unless Russian army morale breaks/ supplies exhaust and they run.
  
  I saw a WSJ article yesterday saying they've been the final defense line

This is the best summary I could come up with:
Nearly three months since launching a much vaunted counteroffensive using hundreds of billions of dollars of Western military equipment, Ukraine has recaptured more than a dozen villages but has yet to penetrate Russia's main defences.
Stories in the New York Times, Washington Post and other news organisations last week quoted U.S. and other Western officials as suggesting the offensive was falling short of expectations.
Ukrainian commanders say they are moving slowly on purpose, degrading Russia's defences and logistics to reduce losses when they finally attack at full strength.
After months of fighting their way through heavy minefields, Ukraine's forces have finally reached the main Russian defensive lines in recent days, south of the village of Robotyne which they captured last week in Western Zaporizhzhia region.
They are now advancing in an area between the nearby villages of Novopokropivka and Verbove, looking for a way around the anti-tank ditches and rows of concrete pyramids known as dragon's teeth that form Russia's main fortifications visible from space.
Russia is also facing the aftermath of a mutiny two months ago by Wagner, a private army that had formed the main attack force of its own winter offensive earlier this year.
The original article contains 801 words, the summary contains 197 words. Saved 75%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

Not the correct response to say to those who hold the purse strings to your war chest. Especially one particular country whose political tide can turn and drown you.

Whoa! What news!

What a coincidence, "shut up" is what I tell people who can't stop talking about Ukraine and Russia.
- Honestly I'm just sick of hearing about it.
- Why?
  
  Could be because the dominant narrative is just people (mostly Americans) cheering for more men, women, and children to be forced into the meat grinder by the thousands, just so they (who are cheering from safety on the other side of the world) can feed their twisted sense of justice and pro-American/NATO and “freedom”/“democracy” delusions.
- You're a terrible person, I hope you one day experience the growth necessary to realise how embarrassing this post of yours is.

Is only war, why you hef to be mad?

As an european taxpayer who see Ukrainian in Jaguar and Audi Q7 driving aroung in my country, I would say to these pain in the ass to shut up! Never seen such an arrogant people, they are in a conflict, getting free supply of everything and they complain!
- This has to be the dumbest take I've seen on Lemmy yet. Holy shit.
  
  No kidding.
  I know it’s purely anecdotal but all the Ukrainians I’ve had in my town have been some of the most kindest and polite people I’ve had the pleasure of serving
  
  I... have some news for you.
  Sadly, this is the sort of shit parroted amongst less tech savy populations in countries with Ukranian refugees. Mostly older parents, grandparents, older aunts and uncles and such from Eastern Europe (the first port of call usually for refugees - neighboring countries). Hence why you don't see it that often around here. It's present in the west of Europe, as well.
  Also quite popular is 'we can't take care of our own [homeless people], but have you seen the amount of money that the government is pumping into them with their fancy cars?'
  Oh and "I'm sick and tired of hearing ukranian everywhere I go. The playground is full of ukranian children and their parents that don't speak {local language}!"
  I suspect it's russian propaganda, because nobody can be that stupid on their own, right?
  Like sure, they have audi q8s. What were they supposed to do? Leave them there and walk towards new places? And if your daughter/son was fleeing invaders, what would you think of the asshats that point at them and say 'go away with yer fancy car!'? I thought we were all on the same page of not wanting russia as a neighbour in the near future. Apparently not. Somehow people running away from actual rape and murder are inconveniencing them.
- Those are the ones you see. How do you tell a Ukrainian from your own countrymen on a bus? They're not all rich, they're not all assholes, they are where they are because they wanted to stay alive. And so would you if you were in their shoes, you dense fuck.
  
  He can tell them apart through a shaded car window in the middle of traffic, who knows what this guy can do.
  
  if you were in their shoes, explain to why this syrian, palestinian refugees has still no access to the work market or his children have access to school after 3years in our asylum while ukrainians get everything and for free?
  you dense fuck.
  I gently fuck you.
- As an european taxpayer who see Ukrainian in Jaguar and Audi Q7 driving aroung in my country
  So you're just jealous because they weren't all beggars when the war broke out?
  they are in a conflict, getting free supply of everything and they complain!
  A lot of people are getting killed. They have every right to complain.
  
  So where are you on the other refugees who get nothing and are from even close countries than Ukraine?
  They get nothing because they're not white, right?
  
  i am not jealous, fucktard.
  I am pissed of. There are real refugees out there with family getting shit while these suckers get a wild card.
- What a hot and plainly idiotic take.
  If you're not shilling for the Russians, you're certainly dense as fuck.
  
  Probably a bot, they love to start their propaganda with "as an X I think that..."
  
  i'm a taxpayer and I don't give a fuck about non-europeand and moreover corrupted countries regarding refugees, they should be treated like the others, no exclusive rights or benefits, waiting in line.
  it has nothing to do with being with one or the other.
- Hey,
  I know you are getting downvoted and railed on pretty hard here, but please take this moment to reconsider some of your core beliefs and why you might feel the way you do.
  Are people fleeing their home country to get rich?
  
  the question is why do they get privileges over other refugees?! their country is not wiped off like lybia or syria , UA is quite intact, so they shouldn't even fly away and if so, we should not provide them wildcard access, but follow the process.
  they are refugees which lost everything, qualified and their country sent back to stone age: waiting in line for 3 to 5 years to just get access school, work market and co. They are at the image of their president, arrogant and ungrateful.
  I'm just an european taxpayer pissed of!
  
  They got rich by being crooks in the most corrupt country in Europe. They fled the country they ruined and turned into a shithole vassal state of the USA. These are the worst Ukraine has to offer.
- You don't flee to get rich, you flee to stay alive. It's no matter of money.
- Diday terb yur jerbs?