On prison abolition
You're a prison abolitionist. You're in a high stakes discussion where you have to answer seriously and be convincing.
Someone asks you : "yeah, but what are we to do with people breaking the law, then? What will you replace prisons with ?"
What will you answer?
Edit : Thanks a lot for your answer, they were very interesting and reflecting different ways to frame a world without prisons.
Except from one or two edgelord hot takes, of course.
I don't think it's possible to abolish prisons for all crimes. But why does a thief or a drug dealer (or worse, just a drug user) need to be in prison? What about the nature of their crimes necessitates imprisonment as a reasonable method of corrections?
If the point is stopping people from reoffending, prisons don't do that. Like objectively. Recidivism in the US is super high, and going to prison predicts increases in the severity of crimes people commit.
So, what reduces recidivism? Eliminating the factors that drove them to crime in the first place. So, you monitor them closely - house arrest, assigned social/case workers, etc. Like a more robust parole system for nonviolent offenders. With enough surveillance, you can reduce the likelihood of reoffence by making the chances of getting caught much higher. This enhanced monitoring would be temporary.
For violent offenders and more serious criminals, maybe prisons are still necessary. But they don't have to be dehumanizing and can provide necessary health/psychiatric, educational, social, and job skills training.
You could make the corrections system more effective by making society easier for criminals to reintegrate into. If you're a felon and you can't find work because you're a felon - how are you going to afford to live within the confines of the law? Step 1) jobs programs for felons with a path to eliminating non-violent offenses from your record as it relates to work with exceptions as necessary. Step 2) improve the education system to prevent people from turning to crime and to help give former criminals relevant job skills to earn an honest living. Step 3) provide healthcare to people - having access to healthcare for mental and addiction-related conditions is super important to reduce crime.
Basically - prison abolition isn't about just letting rapists and murderers go free with no consequences. Instead, people in favor of prison abolition are typically in favor of reducing the societal pressures to commit crimes and preventing reoffense.
In short, prison abolition isn't about abolishing prisons?
Bad name choice in my opinion, as it immediately makes me think: what a dumb idea. There will surely always be people beyond a point of no return.
No one's actually saying abolish prisons
Me:
In short, prison abolition isn't about abolishing prisons?
Bad name choice in my opinion, as it immediately makes me think: what a dumb idea.
This is kind of like saying being anti-war is a dumb idea because there will surely always be wars fought in defense. Being anti-war isn't necessarily being an absolute pacifist. It's about opposing war and striving towards a future where war is a relic of the past. Everybody understands this, but struggles to apply the same logic to other topics.
Striving for intentionally utopian and impossible ideals is a great idea, actually, as long as you recognize it for what it is. I'm a prison abolitionist. Ultimately what I strive for is a society that doesn't need prisons. I don't know if total prison abolition is possible, but worst case scenario, we get as close as possible. What's so bad about that?
Similarly, I'm a communist, in the classical anarchist sense: abolition of state, class, and money. Are these things possible? Maybe not. In fact, probably not, at least not in any timeframe where humanity will be recognizable to us, as it would require true peace between all people and absolute post-scarcity in every way available to everyone. But worse case scenario, we get as close as possible.
Ultimately, adopting a utopian ideal is a recognition that the struggle to do better never ends. We're never "done". There's no end of history. Even if we do somehow achieve it, it must be maintained.
The name is important because of the parallels between slavery and modern day prisons.
At minimum, the movement is about completely rethinking our approach to dealing with crime. If we “only” reduce the prison population to 5% or 1% of its current count in the process, we won’t have abolished all prisons, but we will have succeeded in abolishing many parts of the current criminal justice system.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed answer. I agree with you about almost everything.
Id say: prisons dont work, cost a lot and does huge damage. They also often work as a gateway to heavier crime. I dont need a replacement for that. "Nothing" would still be an improvement. This is the short answer
When that is said, what do we do about crime? Id say that depends, what kind of crime? There are so many different motivations for doing crime, there should be just as many solutions: removing poverty, proper sex education, confiscating the money from the rich, remove the reasons people are doing crime in the first place
We also do a lot of alternatives today: fines, mental hospitals, community service, guidance, conflict counseling, anger management courses, sometimes a serious conversation with the police, childcare help, detox institutions, and a lot more
They have three things in common: they work, they are a lot cheaper and they dont for the same mental damage as torture/prison
And then there are those under 1% og criminals that is totally lost, that need to be locked up. But only until we get a society where they dont get lost..
If those are valid substitutes for prison and they do exist, then why does prison still get the bulk of the offenders? I’m all for your idea but reality seems to be proving those solutions do not apply to most cases of criminal justice
What reality? Prisons doesnt work. Even just abolishing them without alternatives would be better for solving crime Why prisons get the bulk of the offenders? Light be something wrong with the system then. Just like how tons of people starve to death each day while EU and USA burns food to keep high prices Something happening of not a good reason to continue doing it
I almost feel like I'm being contrarian by asking this, though it isn't my intent: your alternatives sound great at first blush, but how do you intend that those alternatives are enforced? Does that lead into your estimated >1% of offenders?
These are not really my alternatives, but common solutions where I live. They are usually enforced through the police or in a court system where they base it on stuff like what you have done, what your intensions are, where you are in life, and what you yourself think will help you to not repeat your crimes It is not perfect, parties that pretend to be tuff on criminals are undermining it for cheap votes, and way too many still go to prison. But it is an alternative that works and that rehabilitate people without hurting them I wish we could go the opposite way
I don't think you can start with prison reform.
You can't rehabilitate someone who is stealing out of necessity or because they are mentally unwell. Have to start with providing UBI and universal Healthcare (including and especially mental health and addiction rehab). Probably also should solve homelessness and provide cheap educational options too.
Once that's in start improving prisons, make them not slums, provide some ways to keep up with the times (an excon with no concept of the internet is not going to be functional in today's society) and provide job programs and some way of protecting excons from excessive discrimination. The number one metric to measure the success of a prison should be the recitivism rate.
Now maybe after all this is done there's a few people who cannot be classified as insane and are deadset on committing violent crimes. I will point out that a lot of organized crime would fall apart when there isn't a fresh supply of disenfranchised people to exploit at the bottom and a lot of white collar crime does not need full exclusion from society more than exclusion from the system they were exploiting.thise few remaining murders and terrorists can go be in prison.
Tldr: to fix prisons you must first fix society.
Education and intensive face to face therapy.
I prefer ass to ass therapy, personally
What's wrong with face to ass centipede therapy
Prisons are punishment but that won’t deter crime committed out of necessity or substance abuse from self medicating mental illness. Root cause that shit - meet the basic needs (food, water, shelter) of everyone unconditionally, provide physical and mental health care to everyone as a basic right, and you suddenly have less need for prisons.
Interesting cases that challenge this argument: white collar crime - would this be consider a mental illness? Sexual predators - definitely mental illness likely caused by prior trauma, we need to provide mental health care.
I don't need to have a replacement ready. It's enough for me to say that the current system does not work.
That's always my first answer indeed. "Well, I'm going to answer your question but first, just think about the abolition of legal slavery a while ago. What would you have thought about someone who would object : "yeah, but what will we replace slavery with ?".
I support the abolishment of prisons (at least as we know them), but I don't think this is a fair or convincing comparison. Prisons are a failed attempt to solve a real problem (what to do with people who break the rules), which is what people are concerned about. In an ideal society it will be replaced by something (rehabilitation?). Slavery solved no problem, and so needed nothing to replace it.
Seize the illegally obtained wealth, pay civil damages to the victims and rehabilitation program including education and psychological support.
I'm fine saying that people like Dutroux, Breivick or Abdeslam shall not be out before a very long-time. However, they're not the average criminal.
Let me return you the question, there is that single-mother who struggle to pay the rent, and debt collector knocked her door a few times, a drug dealer ask her if she can keep a package for them and that someone will pick-it up tomorow night and give her 500 € in exchange, does that woman (Which is now part of drug dealer network) desserve jail-time ? Wouldn't giving her the mean to pay the rent prevent her from needing to take part of drug traffic ? That drunk person has a fight in the train station, the other fighter falls on the track as the train arrive, now a person died. Does the person desserve to spend 5-10 years in jail ? Wouldn't Rehab work better ?
I'll go even further and say that welfare program, teacher, psychiatrist and some other do way more at preventing crime than police, jail and hard on crime policies
Wouldn't giving her the mean to pay the rent prevent her from needing to take part of drug traffic ?
From context I gather you're from Belgium. Isn't there already OCMW/CPAS for free housing?
What do you do when it's the single mom in free housing that just wants 500EUR extra cash? Find political consensus to give her a bigger free house, with a pool, and a credit card?
From context I gather you're from Belgium. Isn't there already OCMW/CPAS for free housing?
Just because they're from one country (assuming they actually are,) doesn't mean they're speaking from the perspective of that country. Most people will assume if you're speaking English you're from America or some such.
What do you do when it's the single mom in free housing that just wants 500EUR extra cash? Find political consensus to give her a bigger free house, with a pool, and a credit card?
You're just using a completely different scenario to move the goalposts. I believe that they're point was that imprisoning people for committing a crime in pursuit of basic survival is pretty fucking shitty.
I think I understand the spirit of your question, but the way you've worded it suggests that the law is immutable and/or that lawbreakers are necessarily evildoers. I interpret the question as "without incarceration, what do we do about those who do harm to others". To that I would answer that we need institutions and programs that provide various types of care, support, and protection to people and that those who cause harm and do not provide restitution to their victims lose access to those institutions and programs. For example, if a child molester's house burns down, the fire department would not be expected to try and save them. If it was arson then the arsonist might only get fined for creating an environmental hazard and putting adjacent buildings at risk. The lack of a carceral system would make funding available for the above programs and institutions.
Ah. I'm not so comfortable with English but yeah, that was what I meant indeed!
In short, community based restorative justice and support services. I.e., repairing harm through dialogue between victims, offenders, and community members, while addressing root causes like poverty, mental health issues, and substance abuse.
Ultimately, the goal is to create a society where crime is less likely to occur. This requires a shift towards preventive measures that promote social equity and community engagement. Abolishing prisons, for me at least, is one part of a larger movement that values dignity and promotes healing rather than perpetuating cycles of harm
repairing harm through dialogue between victims, offenders, and community members
What if the person who committed the crime doesn't want to engage in this process? What if the victim of the crime doesn't want to? What if a person accused of a crime maintains their innocence? There are plenty of cases where restorative justice can work, but many others where it won't.
addressing root causes like poverty, mental health issues, and substance abuse
the goal is to create a society where crime is less likely to occur
I think this is a much better framework to work with than prison abolition. Picking up the pieces after a crime has been committed is expensive and usually leaves you choosing from a range of bad options.
Isn't the root cause often (generational) trauma. There's no, within lifetime, solution.
The basis of prison abolition is not the idea that we should replace prision with something else. We start by understanding that it is the structure of our society that creates and perpetuates systems of crime and punishment. The emphasis on punishment does little or nothing to address the safety, health and property rights of the public. So it can be seen that it is a public problem that requires a public solution: the vast resources spent on catching and punishing people would be better spent on prevention by making mental health, substance abuse and addiction treatment affordable and available to everyone.
Rather than punish, a greater effort could be made to help rehabilitate people who have lost control of themselves and their lives, to restore them to living in harmony within their communities. Of course there will always be a small proportion of the population that are unable to healthy lives, unable to resist resorting to theft, violence, and desperate attempts at self-medication. Such persons do not benefit from punishment.
Plenty of word around that prison is a poor deterrent and to me it doesn't make much sense as a punishment. It should be a tool to guide the person on right tracks.
For instance, a fellow gets caught for not paying a million in taxes so they get sent to prison where they will continue to not pay and instead spend government money. For a situation like this I suggest they remain captive (not imprisoned) working for the government until they have paid their debt. Alike in prison, someone will have a constant eye on the fellow and every breath they take. After all they managed to accumulate a million of tax money so they obviously are capable.
Those who we genuinely can't trust to not be out of trouble should be locked up, for a reason.
We don't replace prisons, because putting people in cages is bad. There's nothing to "replace" them with. If I wanted to "replace" prisons I wouldn't want to abolish them. That's like asking what you'll replace slavery with, how on earth are we going to get cheap labour otherwise.
Bourgeois law should be abolished too. I have no respect for "the law".
Thomas Mathiesen has entered the chat
Criminals will be required to work social services for the common good. High-risk criminals will also be put under constant surveillance either by automated systems or, in extreme cases, Human guards to stop them from reoffending.
What will you replace prisons with?
Work and reeducation camps.
Mmmmm, extra steps my favorite!
in starship trooper I believe they replaced all prisons with corporal punishment.
3 psychologists per criminal I'd guess.
Well, that would reduce unemployment.
Same as what we had for centuries before prison of course.
Execution is still possible, but exile is probably a bit difficult in the modern world.