I may need to upsize from my TKL

Glad to know I'm in the clear with my little 40%. Or is my mental so disordered that its come full circle back to an actual keyboard?

I literally will not ever daily use a keyboard if it doesn't have a number pad.
Any time I'm forced to temporarily use anything without a num pad I feel like I'm driving a car that's missing half it's steering wheel or something. It just feels wrong.
- I downsized a while back due to switching to a smaller desk, and it does feel weird.
  
  I can input lots of numbers very fast without looking down with a num pad. I cannot do that with the number row. I have to look down at some point and it's much slower.
- Amen.
  I've been using a wireless mechanical 100% keyboard for years. Love it so much I bought a duplicate, so I have a spare when it's time to run one through the dishwasher!
  
  The…the what now?
- It needs to be ≥ 100% for me
- I just learned how to type numbers quickly without a numpad. It's truly a skill issue if you need a numpad lol
- just map it to a layer bro
  
  Not the same. A functional num pad needs to be in a strict grid pattern to work. The keys need to be column aligned so they can be felt and the num pad used without looking at it.

Me playing modded Minecraft:
What was the disable jetpack button again?
- Keeb goes hard ngl
- What is that beautiful monstrosity?
  
  That's a hyper7. If youve got a pathological need for a billion keys and £700 to drop you can't go far wrong. Although you may have to spend a little more to reinforce your desk and remove a wall to get it in your house lol
- I see a distinct lack of F13-F15, assuming 1.12.2 or 1.7.10 (1.13 and newer added F16-F25)
- Try DCS.
- That would be a nice post on !mechanical_keyboards@programming.dev
- Man, I could have all of that and still be like "Shit where do I put Building Gadget Mode Switch???"
  It so pretty doe
  
  You find it and the key is still shared with three other keybinds
- My copy of Keyboard Maestro sent off fireworks when it saw those macro rows

I spent 30 years thinking someday I'd start using the number pad and then finally gave up. I like having the typing part centered more.
- Exactly. For me it's closer to 40 years and I don't think I ever used the number pad more than ten times. Tenkeyless is just better, unless you're an accountant.
  
  Or if you use different language keyboard layout. I mostly use Czech layout and if I wanted to type numbers without a numpad, I would need to hold shift+number to type them, or change the layout. So for me it's more convenient to just use the numpad. Also I grew up with full sized keyboards so it's also a habit.
- The number pad only ever became relevant to me after decades when I began playing video games that have more keybindings than I have brain cells. Caves Of Qud makes use of basically the the whole number pad just to manually move in 8 different directions.
  
  Caves of Qud annoyed me with that, but I got vim-ish movement keys worked out instead. Normal hjkl, bnyu for diagonals, took a bit but now it's second nature
- Do you people never do any actual work on your computers?
  I have body parts that are less important to me than my numpad.
  
  We just don't work as accountants ;-).
- Tkl/80 is my preferred size
  
  I'm a full TKL man myself. I don't mind the space, just don't like using space for stuff I never use.
- I'm a fan of TKL as well, but one annoying place where the numpad is missed is games and software that hardcode numpad keys

You have left out galaxy brain giant IBM model M. (Not more keys, but thicc keys.)
It's not just the size. It's also the way the sound of typing will bother everyone else in the room.
- How about the superior 122 key Model F
  
  “To use this feature, simply press the F213 key.”
  (unfolds paper keyboard map)
  (moves finger around for five minutes searching)
  Ah, okay. There it is. (tap)
  
  Oh my God.
  
  That’s a surfboard.
- Ahhhhh - that IBM Model 50 keyboard. Loud AF, and could drive a truck over it. Was my first and the feel of it was great.
- I knew I was going to find a comment about the Model M!
  I use the modern incarnation made by Unicomp since 2019. Best Keyboard I ever had and probably my main keyboard for the rest of my life. It’s really that good! Minimal wear on the buttons after 6 years (I’m a developer so the keyboard gets used once in a while 😉)
  One thing I wanted to mention: Although I like the clicky sound, it is quite loud. It was loud enough that I woke up my little baby girl when working at night. So I had to silence it or buy another keyboard 😔 I ended up with fiddling dental floss inside of every single spring and used o rings to dampen the noise it makes when you hit the buttons hard and they bottom out. I’d say you get 80-90% of the tactility with 30% of the noise. Perfect combo in my opinion.
- It's not just the size, or the sound, but the fact you could comfortably concuss an elephant with it, or stop a bullet and go right back to typing. Those things were built like tanks.
- When my grampy died, my parents threw out about four Model Ms from his house. They didn’t know they’re not just old keyboards D:
- I need to get mine fixed. I sometimes tire of my steel series and wish to deafen all my online friends

While I love my full-sized keyboard, respectfully - who cares. The whole idea of a PC is the freedom to use whatever you want.
Keyboards, controllers, speech to text, a wii-mote, literal bananas/bread, eye/blink trackers, whatever suits you best. Insisting there's a best device for everyone doesn't change people's minds and just leads to hostility when we should be glad more people are using the device that makes them happy. One day you might be one of them when your circumstances or preferences change.
- Full-size is objectively superior, everything else is a mitigation for sub-optimal circumstances.
  If you have reduced desk space and need to conserve your keyboard size to allow more room for a mouse then absolutely, pick as small a keyboard as you're comfortable with to get sufficient mousing space.
  Anything beyond that is subjective personal preference, which again I have no qualms with, but calling it better without further qualification is going to invite incredulity.
  
  If a full-sized keyboard provides all the keys you reasonably need to do your tasks efficiently, then yes a full-sized keyboard is superior. But that is just not the use case for everyone, hence why it can't be objectively so. Unless you want to imply that more keys even if you don't need them is better anyways.
  If so, you could argue this monstrosity of a keyboard (or something even bigger) is what everyone should be using if they have the space, since it has way more buttons than a full-sized keyboard, making it even more objectively superior. In reality you would not use more than 30% of the buttons on that keyboard, so the rest might as well not exist. But if you are, I don't know, some macro-wizard playing 4 instances of WoW at the same time, maybe it is objectively superior for your needs, but for me a normal sized keyboard would do.
  But to try and sense where you're coming from, it should also be said that someone telling you their choice is better and disregarding that your criteria aren't the same as theirs is being silly as well. And sometimes they can be stubborn and agitated about that as well - exactly the kind of hostility I meant in my initial comment. But someone's got to step up and swallow their pride and accept it really is just all subjective at the end of the day.
  
  No one has discussed split keyboards, which offer all the benefits of a full size and addresses ergonomic concerns across the board. Need only half your keyboard today? Done and done.
  Need ALL the keyboard, we gotchu.
  
  This is objectively superior, as it saves you from RSI.

A keyboard without a numpad is like a cock without a foreskin.
Stupid as fuck, but some people don't know any better
- That analogy is a work of art. So casually out of pocket
- On my desktop, I need that num pad.
  On the go, I loathe my laptop keyboard and mouse, and bring a 60% and a mouse. Easy to fit in the bag for travel if I'm setting up shop somewhere for a few days or more. Also a dock so I can hook it up to the hotel TV or conf room display easily if they are behind the times.
- So you can pull the skin to reveal your numpad?
- part of it is that on 75% the numpad is optional, and it gives you more desk space for other things

100% or bust!
Get a larger desk. No way I'm typing numbers not on a keypad
- I'm pulling my separate numpad out when I know I'll be entering a lot of numbers. Or reach over to it when I enter a PIN from muscle memory. Otherwise I toss it to the side.
  
  I use this occasionally when i need to do a lot of number typing whilst using my mouse so i can relax my arm to the side rather than reaching across the KB and straining the muscle behind my shoulderblade.

?
- Seek professional help
- Defect production
- Split keyboards with trackballs are amazing! I don't know how I managed without
- Would be a good post on !mechanical_keyboards@programming.dev

I went up to a comfortable 110 WPM.
- What is this beautiful thing and where can I purchase it
  
  Look up Microsoft ergonomic keyboard. Best thing they ever made to date.
  
  It's the Neo Ergo by qwertykeys. Should have regional vendors with either stock or preorder, although the mech market has slowed a lot.
- Excluding numbers.

- I really cannot tell if this is sarcasm or not.

I don't need the numpad. But no function keys? That's insane.
- They just become like laptops with a Fn+# key. It's not like they are 'gone'. Same thing with home/end/etc.
  
  I'm not a fan of that, personally.

sorry but I agree. numpad masterrace. say no to degenerate keyboards.

I have a full-sized and a 96%. I don't know how people live without a numpad. Even my laptop has a numpad. I don't do excel shit. But at work I have to enter alot of phone and CC numbers. At home I use the numpad for rating photos when sorting and importing them.
- I don't know how people live without a numpad
  Simple, they don't need to do all those specific things you use yours for!
- I use the number pad for various keybinds in games where there are too many things to control with the keys I regularly use.
  
  Are you Grubby? No actual human uses number pad for keybinds in games, only game Gods who learned before there were real alternatives.
- Yeah 96% is great for me. I work in commercial credit analysis and I'm constantly typing numbers (account numbers/financial information/etc) so not having a number pad would suck. I work from home like 75% of the time and my work space is shared with my personal computing space. I have 1 keyboard that's Bluetooth so I can swap between my personal desktop, personal laptop, and my work laptop. Same with my mouse. Sometimes I do think about getting a smaller keyboard and adding a separate numpad that can tuck out of the way when I'm not working as I don't use it much for personal computing.

Long live the numpad!

I went from a 100% membrane to a 60% mechanical, then a ~63% (think the 60% one but ONLY with extra arrow keys) then to a tenkeyless minus some of the useless keys, now to a full tenkeyless one
Here's what I have. Honestly it's perfect.
- That's my current keyboard too! (Except the NES color-scheme)
  They recently came out with a full-size version, which is tempting me.
  
  What model is this?

I was a cashier, then a bookkeeper during the time when both heavily used the "10-key" and got really fast at touch typing numbers. Not as fast now, but I would be absolutely lost without it for spreadsheets, calculations, etc. I wouldn't even consider a keyboard without one!

- I'm kind of intrigued by this one... What's it called??
  
  DataHand, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand
  
  That's the DataHand, one of the few novel text-entry devices in the last few decades. It's sadly no longer made but ifyou want a modern one, check out the Svalboard.
  The Svalboard is made by one guy in California with FOSS firmware based on QMK/Vial. He took it on because his DataHand, which had enabled him to keep working with a wrist injury, broke and no parts were available.
  I got one myself after near disabling wrist RSI. I don't type as fast as I used to (yet) but I am able to work with a lot less pain.

Meanwhile on my desk
- I too have a full-size Corsair! I got the K100 Air about 6 months ago and I absolutely love it.
  
  Nooo, where the extra 18 macro keys?? :D
  But more importantly – tf is this?
  TIL, and tho it's not for me (I'm not into flats at all) I def want to try the actuation feel.
- Yes, I have this one with the ridiculous logo they only used for a few months. Some of the switches are starting to feel a bit worn though, and I don't think Corsair switches are swappable.
  
  Omg, I remember that, but I have the normal logo (on the older non-RGB white led version).
  Switches arent hot swappable (but it's def not a hard job to replaced then, but a bit time consuming).
  Tho maybe you just need a bit of lube (I doubt you've worn the springs or the contacts).
- In love with those media keys.
  That's how they should always be: Deidcated. If I have to hit Fn+something for Play/Pause it might as well not exist
  
  Yes, exactly, layers are for the main keys, not function keys.

The thing I use is the best thing
- I disagree, you see, it is the thing that I use that is clearly the best thing.
  
  See, i get what you're saying, but... have you considered that mine is the best thing?

Where is my 130% keyboard?
MORE IS MORE!
- Just 130%? Pfft
  Get the 200% — Redragon Alien
- Might I interest you perchance in the Hyper7?
  
  Oh I like that. Until I saw the price.
- A (wo)man after my own heart
- I just use two keyboards.

If I could I would have two tiers and pedals like an organ master
- No pedals but how about the Hyper7 R4?
  
  I'll save y'all the search an tell you it costs about 950€ plus shipping for a 5 kg behemoth of a keyboard. And plus any tariffs, should you live in freedom land and tariffs are currently applicable.
  (* freedom sold separately)
  
  Beautiful! Thank you!
  
  I'm in love

I've been moving toward preferring full keyboards, but I wish it were more normalized for them to put the numpad on the left side.
- With the Everest Max you can choose on which side you dock your numpad: https://mountain.gg/keyboards/everest-max/
- I'm not sure if I would start sane if the number pad was on the left side.
  I'd have to try it
  
  I bind the mouse thumb buttons to win+ctrl+left/right to flip back and forth between virtual desktops and just use my thumb to toggle back and forth between something with numbers I need to look at, and something I need to add those numbers to. But camping left hand on numpad way over to the right eventually feels awkward, it'd probably feel more comfortable to have numpad to the left more closely aligned to my left shoulder because my right hand never moves off my mouse for nothing
- That's interesting. What is your advantage moving the numpad?
  I could kind of understand if it's a left handed thing, though I'm left handed and have always used right handed peripherals. Maybe I got beaten into the right handed world at a young age and never thought there was another option.
  I wonder if my K:D ratio on CS:GO would improve if I assumed with my left hand...
  
  It gets your mouse closer to the actual keyboard.
  When you let go of the keyboard to get your mouse with a full, you have to go over to the numpad, even though you don't use it very often. It puts your right hand in a position that's not very natural, at least to me.
  
  I should say, I'd rather have both the numpad and arrow key column on the left. I'm right handed. One benefit would is less travel anytime you need to move your hand from your mouse to keyboard and back, as well as those relative distances promoting slightly more even/ergonomic arm positioning.
  The other benefit is that I might actually be inclined to use the numpad for games instead of wasd, which would free up the rest of the keyboard for more shortcuts.

I’m gonna catch some heat…. But I gotta speak my truth - this is all I need. I game, I program, I have 2 function keys that change the layout and provide access to any keys not physically present.
- You do you man. We all got different hands and preferences and physical dimensions, as well as different usable desk space. It's silly to draw lines in the sand about peripherals. Personally, I like my giant gaming keyboard with macro keys and whatnot. I program the extra keys to do things as needed. But I wouldn't force that on anyone who wants a smaller form factor. Hell now we can even get picky on how much actuation force, key travel, and sound of key press. A keyboard for every preference!
- I kind of wish Duolingo would create a trainer that helps you practice shortcuts and hot keys. They never seem to stick in my brain asides from copy/paste, new tab, change focus.
- what brand is this? :O asking for a friend
  
  Keychron. Here’s a link to this one: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k9-pro-qmk-via-wireless-custom-mechanical-keyboard?variant=40471030431833

I have a split 40% because I type for a living and normie keyboards destroy my wrists.

This post is looking for a war 🤣

peep the horror
- Ah yes, the klingon keyboard. Goes on the armrests of the captains chair.
- Those are rookie numbers :-D
  
  my other ride is a 60 something % ergo. I need my real mod and symbol keys
- Every time I see these kinds of split keyboards, it reminds me of this scene from Cowboy Bebop.
  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NXcTuAN7oUc
- Nice Mizu
- This is heaven

The fuck do you people need the num pad on your daily driver? Are you all deviant accountants or retro computer enthusiasts typing in code from magazines?
- I use it to type numbers
  
  Well that's pretty unusual to use it that way, I guess.
- To remap the numlock off keys as a macropad.
- Entering IP addresses for work (mostly network info for printers tbh), and a decent amount of games use it for flight.
- Camera/perspective controls in blender

Look, I’m not an accountant, I don’t need a numpad.
- I worked retail in the late 90s-00s, and whenever I have to type in a string of digits longer than three I regret my tkl.
  My cat, however, enjoys the extra real estate on the desk.

I love this meme, but I feel like including TKL in the circle would be a little more fitting. I know I'm a little biased for being a TKL user, but they really aren't that esoteric. Every key is where you expect it. It just doesn't have a numpad.

What about mine
- There is no saving you!
  
  ive made that mistake in the past and eventually came to realise that its pretty good if you need a single dongle for mouse and keyboard when playing around with many old pcs and SBCs. so, this expensive mistake has at least some use whilst my two sofle handle the rest

I'm not even represented. 40 % anyone? nobody?
- I didn't even know 40% exists and has to look it up. I hate to say this to you, but I'm not sure this is going to work out between us.
  
  I put together an olkb planck 40% kit years ago, and it's still my main keyboard for day to day use. (programming, gaming, writing, anything really) The main thing I like about it is that I can just put it in my backpack and carry it with me. It's nice to take my laptop to a cafe or library and still have my good keyboard with me.
- There’s a couple 40%-ers in the comments but not nearly enough. It took me years to learn to properly type, but once I did, I fell in love with a 40%. There’s some cool designs out there for small keyboards, like the Minimi 40 with a combination lid & wrist rest (not released yet, but it’ll be glorious once it’s finally available).
  
  I have a simple planck eotb, and carry it everywhere I go. It's really convenient. I think I got used to typing on it in only a couple of weeks, but spend the past few years tweaking my custom ambidextrous layout.
  Some of my personal favorites are:
  having backspace+ctrl combined on one key, enter+shift combined on another key.
  Having enter and backspace on both sides of the keyboard, so I can use either hand to use them
  Having a single hand numpad when holding a layer key. Very practical for number stuff.
  Putting any computer to sleep, or changing volume without having to look for the right key on my keyboard.

Ah yes, because all people need to enjoy what I enjoy

You'll have to pry my 70% and 75% keyboards from my cold dead hands. Smaller keyboards are much more ergonomic if you need to also regularly use the mouse.

Used full sized all my life, went TKL a month ago and love it, probably never go back to full size. I barely use the numpad on my personal pc anyways.
Fuck all the gatekeeping, choose whichever you like.
- The numpad I could do without, but I need my home, end and delete keys.
  
  Those are still included in TKLs though...
  
  I got a Glorious that I like a lot. But it has an End key but no Home key????????? Wtf, how am I supposed to program on this???? I have to use Keyd on Linux (and AutoHotKey on Windows, but fortunately I don't have to use Windows for work anymore) to remap it to have a Home key.

Just for the few games that either have so many controls (eg. GTA V) or so many actions (eg. modded MC), ≥ 100% is mandatory for me.
- What is a greater than 100% keyboard?

The 96% actually looks reasonable

34 keys is all you need. But it’s nice to have a few extra.
Do get a full-sized keyboard if you love bumping your mouse into it and misfiring when the game gets intense, though !
- Joke's on you, I use a trackball.
  
  TrackPoint master race
- Upvoted... But I am stuck at 36/miryoku and can't go less.
- This is why I wish "southpaw" keyboards would become more mainstream. If you're right-handed, having the numpad on the left makes way more sense ergonomically.
- My old keyboard was a cheap $30 membrane one, and it was a painted metal plate with a plastic shell on the back for the internals. The edge of it was rounded, but it was still just a single edge, maybe 5mm thick, so I used to give myself bruises trying to flick in FPS games. They were literally just a vertical line on my thumb.

I'm too new to upload so look up 5 column corne keyboard
- you can link external images like so
  
  ![](www.image.url)
- https://images.app.goo.gl/tauZ
  Huh, not my preferred method. I wish I learned typing on Dvorak, but I use a 96% ANSI keychron and I'm pleased with it.
- Yep, typing this on a Corne-ish Zen. Funnily enough saw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bTI6WUJxD4 yesterday and my first thought was "No. ALL my keys get to work hard!"

Like so many things, it really depends on what you're doing. I've worked a lot of different jobs, and some absolutely require a numpad and some I've never touched it. What people really need is programmable keyboards. If you need a numpad you don't have to even move your hands if you program it right. Same with function keys. It's better for you long term. So I'd actually suggest a smaller but programmable keyboard for everyone, even if they don't use the numpad, plenty of great features on these keyboards.

My daily keyboard's a 40%.
I also use a keyboard with a numpad. And I have a standalone numpad for rare occasions.

NGL, sometimes I want a TKL, but with a hexadecimal numpad (I'm a programmer).
- TKL is good for karpal tunnel (or it was for me), much place for the mouse suddenly.
  FWIW you can get bluetooth numpads and stick it anywhere you'd like!
  
  Or a southpaw layout! Numpad on the left. Its what I transitioned to, and I love it. E.G. keychron q12
- Some custom keycaps and a custom layout definition and that should be doable. The numpad has 16 keys.
- Have you considered an ortholinear layout? Can use the whole keyboard as a numpad if you like (I'm a programmer too and specifically went for a 40% ortho for this reason.)

Sorry I have a TKL with a separate numpad that does not get much use.

I’m a StarCraft player, which means that I do not need the numkeys and absolutely have a mental disorder. Why do I do this to myself? Mama Mia 😞

I hate my 60%, you can only use the question mark or arrows at one time. And unfortunately, I use both of them frequently
- 60% is what I imagine being in hell is like

Why smol keyboard?
- More space on the desk for 143 empty cans of monster.
- Because when i was a consultant i had to bring my laptop to clients. A big keyboard didn't dit in my bag, but a TKL was still preferable to the laptop keyboard.
- When I play games, I use a 60% and a Razer Tartarus v2. I won’t play any other way. It’s so much more ergonomic and better for my wrists, and I don’t have to rebind keys in games ever again.
  For regular computing and work, I for sure use a full-size!

Full size gets in the way for no good reason. TKL is the best. The others force you to do too much weird shit just to get common keys.

my favorite keyboard that i can remember was some bullshit off-brand apple thing from the early 2000s when USB accessories were super novel. rescued from a dumpster, not related to other Apple trash that belonged in the dumpster. full size numpad, super satisfying clicky clacky. several different shades of puke in color. took that to work and told IT to take their stuff and go

I've been trying a 75% tenkeyless but I do miss the number block haha. I really want to switch to a split ergo though, but it's a bit of investment to learn and configure.

When I was buying mine full-sized was a huge leap in price from TKL, so I said fuck it, I'll get used to the damn number row!
And so I did. And now even when I have a numpad available I'm still typing with the number row.
...y-yay capitalism????
- Number row is good once you get used to using it without looking.
  Even better is a layer toggle to put numbers near or on your homerow.

"He said the truth", but they hated him.

I’m surprised by the love here for the number pad! I saw mainly benefits for getting a 60 or 65% when I was considering a keyboard kit:
More space for moving my mouse to the left. I play FPS games with a pretty low sensitivity, and I used to flick my thumb into my keyboard.
More portable. My keyboard can connect with Bluetooth or usb-c so it’s nice to be able to use with a tablet
Less switches to lube and install when I assembled it
No redundant keys, though I had to learn traditionally typing numbers. But now I don’t have to move my hand position to type them.
I do prefer vim for text editing, so I have less use for some of the special keys. But they’re still nice to have for shortcuts or keybinds.

I love my Moonlander. I'll never go back.
- I tried but then I was bad on all the other keyboards.
  
  I kept most of my bindings the same as the normal QWERTY keyboard, so I don't have much of an issue swapping between them. I had debated a lot about changing to other keyboard layouts and I'm really glad that I didn't.

I need my 60% to stop my mouse bumping into my keyboard. Pains of a slow sens
- Feels about my 75

36 keys... I will outpace you, including special characters and numbers