Hamas says it has taken ‘dozens’ of Israelis hostage
Hamas says it has taken ‘dozens’ of Israelis hostage
An Israeli military spokesperson confirmed that there were “hostage situations” in the southern city of Ofakim and the nearby kibbutz of Beeri.
An Israeli military spokesperson confirmed that there were “hostage situations” in the southern city of Ofakim and the nearby kibbutz of Beeri.
Hamas said it had taken “dozens” of Israeli soldiers hostage and moved them to the Gaza Strip as footage emerged appearing to show gunmen in military fatigues leading a group of mostly barefoot women down a street in Israel.
The announcement and video verified by NBC News came hours after Hamas launched a deadly land, air and sea attack and fired a huge barrage of rockets at Israel.
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Most importantly, fascism involves a comprehensive transformation of society, with a particular focus on military expansion.
Palestinians all over the world chant "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" at demonstrations. This is a reference to lands that include Israel. So there is a desire for a non-democracy to expand into the territory of a democracy. This feeling is so pervasive in Palestinian culture it's chanted in demonstrations on the other side of the world. Note there is no reference to any religious sites, simply to land the others have that they believe should be theirs.
There have even been calls for the ethnic cleansing of Jews by Palestinians living in western countries as well. "Push them into the sea, wipe them off the map" kinds of things. Why would someone not even living there be saying these things if it's not a societal transformation?
If you look at the actual propaganda, very little references religion. It's mostly about how the land rightfully belongs to Palestinians. Going on and on about the 1948 map, the Ottoman Empire etc. The only thing I see that's somewhat religious is references to the times of the Crusades. "We'll win in time like we did during the Crusades." But note that's also a reference to past greatness, one of the most defining characteristics of fascism. I mean where does the word fascism come from?
In fascism, the means ARE the end, there’s no real plan, the fascist dictator just tries to ride the wave of nationalism as long as they can.
Yes and what exactly is the plan in this current aggression by Hamas? Do you feel like what they're doing right now is part of a real plan? Nope. What is the plan for the many rocket attacks Hamas has done in the past? There is no plan. Hamas needs to kill Israelis to keep power. Do you think the Hamas leadership does these things because Allah told them to? Or do they do it to prevent their followers from leaving Hamas and joining some other group that is willing to execute attacks on Israel?
That's the nature of fascism. You can get control over people by making them hate but you can't allow that hatred to dissipate or you lose control. Hamas attacks Israel because if they don't, they lose power. Sure they'll use religious terminology to make their actions seem more legitimate to their followers, but in the end it boils down to blood and soil, promises of restoring past greatness, use of violence to maintain power.
Note there is no reference to any religious sites, simply to land the others have that they believe should be theirs.
That's such a stretch they should call you Mr Incredible.
I don't know why I bothered, I knew even as I was typing that you weren't interested in learning. I knew you were going to pick as many individual parts of that definition as you could and try to force the square peg of Hamas into the round hole of fascism. Because the alternative is that maybe you were wrong about something, and oh no we can't have that.
We really need to do a better job funding our schools.
He thinks religion isn't the end goal, but instead a tool used by fascists leaders whose end goal is actually that: fascism.
You think the people calling the shots are actually devout and that fascism is a tool to achieve some religious goal.
The former is a safer bet, since it isn't predicated on needing to buy into the idea that the sort of people who orchestrate these acts are inherently principled and devout people who just have a very unfortunate interpretation of Islam.
Call it fascist+ with a fancy name if you will, but it's nothing to get so worked up over.
There is no fascism though. Just some similar elements.
It's definitely worth getting worked up over the zoomer tendency to call damn near everything fascism. Even the Barbie movie made fun of it. It's watering the term down to meaninglesness. Which is very dangerous when there are real actual fascists on the rise in the world.
We really need to do a better job in teaching better manners.
When you have no logical response to something a person says to you, do you consider it good form to resort to... well ad hominem sounds too classy for what you wrote.... Shit tier elementary school "You dumb I'm smart" asshat behaviour?
Learn to do better at the conversation stuff mate.
I know when actually arguing is hopeless. Literally nothing I could say would change your mind at all, no matter how much I prove you wrong, so why waste the effort? Better to just insult you, at least that's a little fun and low effort.
Yeah that'll happen when you approach everything as if it's an argument and while being incapable of making a cohesive argument.
Are you trying to suggest that you don't want to argue? That you might be open to learning something new?
Wait, wait, let me do your part
Maybe if you could actually tell me something new. Instead, all you presented was a njknbfddscjjuhbjoiubffrdsdvnki
Sorry, I spaced on the last bit but it's always a mad libs of haughty insults.
Okay my turn: can you possibly imagine being wrong in any way? Have you ever been wrong about anything?
Now you: you're a sad individual who's trying to distract from your total lack of an argument. I completely proved you wrong in every way and you know it.
Then me: so that would be a "no"
Then you: fuck off, troll
Then me: lol
That's usually where this ends. Hopefully saved us a few back and forth.
What is it you think I'm going to learn from anything you've typed? The only thing you seem to want people to "learn" as that you're right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong without you providing any kind rational reason for this.
You stated that it's the nature of fascism for there to be no real plan. I stated that Hamas has no real plan other than to use nationalistic and genocidal fervor to remain in power. We're seeing genocidal actions being celebrated (or at the very least rationalized) by Palestinians. I don't see a lot of Palestinians outright condemning the actions of Hamas, either out of sympathy for them or out of fear of them. This is suggestive of a fascist society.
You could blow my argument out the water by explaining what the long term plan of Hamas is. But there is none. Because they're fascist and having power over people is the goal.
So instead of anything countering long list of fascist characteristics of Hamas and Palestinian society, it's just "YOU'RE WRONG WHY DON'T YOU ADMIT IT!!!!!"
You could blow my argument out the water by explaining what the long term plan of Hamas is.
Really? You promise?
Sure but with the caveat that it's a plan that will actually work (not just propaganda material) and it's not just a callback to the "glorious past" of the Crusades (which is also propaganda).
Think pre-crusades
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[4][5] It emphasizes the importance of jihad, stating in article 13, "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."[6] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[7] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion [of Islam]".[1] The original charter was criticized for its violent language against all Jews, which some commentators characterized as incitement to genocide.
The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejects recognition of Israel which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates "liberation of all of Palestine".[14][15] The new document also states that the group doesn't seek war with the Jewish people but only against Zionism which it holds responsible for "occupation of Palestine".[16] Mashal also stated that Hamas was ending its association with the Muslim Brotherhood.
By far the central objective is a Palestinian state that encompasses all or most of present day Israel and the defeat or obliteration of Israeli Jews. It is a very clear objective that hasn't wavered in its central premise, just in scope.
To put it simply, they want a Israel to be a Muslim caliphate. It's a very clear long term goal, and their plan to get there is jihad. And it's a sincerely held goal, not just propaganda (though they do of course use propaganda to further that goal).
Notably, their goal is solely regional, not endlessly expansionist like most fascist regimes.
Another, separate massive difference from fascism is the lack of strongman political organization:
The governing body is the Majlis al-Shura. The principle behind the council is based on the Qur'anic concept of consultation and popular assembly (shura), which Hamas leaders argue provides for democracy within an Islamic framework.[70] As the organization grew more complex and Israeli pressure increased it needed a broader base for decisions, the Shura Council was renamed the 'General Consultative Council', elected from members of local council groups and this in turn elected a 15-member Politburo (al-Maktab al-Siyasi)[71] that made decisions at the highest level. Representatives come from Gaza, the West Bank, leaders in exile and Israeli prisons.[72] This organ was located in Damascus until the Syrian Civil War led it to transfer to Qatar in January 2012, when Hamas sided with the civil opposition against the regime of Bashar al-Assad.[72][73]
So you're saying wanting to obliterate Jews is evidence they are not fascist?
Do you always take fascists at their word? Do you think charters and constitutions are always 100% the true intentions of the writers?
And even the excerpts you compiled have fascist rhetoric all over the place.
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
Call to violent fervor. But the kind that sounds vaguely religious!
renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion [of Islam]
They're demanding people to consider their political cause to be a religious cause. Not even being subtle about it. "We declare that blood and soil is a religious thing!"
To put it simply, they want a Israel to be a Muslim caliphate.
Again how are they going to actually accomplish this? How is Hamas going to actually going to overpower the IDF? Do you think that's an actual real possibility?
Since Hamas isn't actually capable of doing this everything they claim they want for a future government is pure fantasy and just propaganda designed to help recruitment. They can offer everyone unicorns, blow jobs, and endless lines of coke once Israel is defeated. Whatever brings in recruits.
The governing body is the Majlis al-Shura
You mean that bullshit that allows the Hamas leadership to live large off of donations from bitter Arab billionaires outside of Palestine, safe from any risk from the IDF while their people get killed when the IDF retaliates against their rocket attacks? Form hierarchical power structures is a fascist thing too. And which of Majlis al-Shura, General Consultative Council, and Politburo are religious in nature? Ah yes the great Politburo, that's keeping in accordance with the Islamic traditions!
Basically it's just all blood and soil shit, with a heaping helping of we will go back to Islamic tradition (someday! ;)) but first die for us in our never ending conflict with those evil people over there! Because Islam and stuff, yo.
They're not quoting religious texts, not mentioning any religious sites. Not giving any religious justification for what they're doing. They're just saying "this is a religious struggle because we said so!"
And I can't stress this enough, these are the words of fascists, you can't swallow the things they say as if they're dealing with people truthfully. Like all fascists they give lip service to religion to legitimize their power.