not a metaphor for anything

one more report and I'm locking this whole mf thread
I understand this is a controversial topic but y'all need to behave your damn selves
The basics are:
This is fundamentally a discussion about hurtful language, including slurs. I don't mind them being mentioned / referenced (in fact I would argue it's important to talk about them), but I'm not going to tolerate them being directed at people. This is y'alls final warning on that. I've removed some comments already but after this I'm just going to start handing out bans.
I know there's alternate interfaces for Lemmy, but on the basic version I'm familiar with, under each comment there is a button on the left end of the bar of buttons with three dots and a little arrow indicating additional options. If you press it, you will find that you have the option to "block" other users. This function will make it so that you no longer have to see anything they post or interact with them. This is a fantastic feature that I highly recommend utilizing in the event that someone says something you find upsetting that does not break the rules of this comm or instance.
Please review this educational material for additional instruction if you are still having difficulty with these concepts.

"Is it possible to learn this allegory?"
"Not from the Daily Wire."

This is obviously about Australians calling their mates "cunts".
- hey cunt!

Shuddap you fundark.

I thought this was a post about the overuse of “dude”

I’m personally kind of reminded of how “faggot” and “dyke” are being “taken back” and used jokingly/sarcastically, but I still get really uncomfortable if someone uses them with me. They’ll say “oh I don’t mean it offensively!” But it’s not really up to you to decide what’s offending another person or not.
- Whats removed? I have no idea what this post is about.
  
  A bundle of sticks
- I once had someone tell me very very earnestly that the word Queer - a word I literally marched under in protest - was the worst most horrible slur ever, then turn around and use fruit.
  Baby comm members need naptime methinks
- I grew up with those words being common and I hope they don't come back in any form. They're very damaging even to straight males. But I'm sure as long as there's a counter culture they won't go away.
  Case in point, I've been getting really into Latin dance, taking group classes, taking private classes, etc. the people that I see dance that look amazing are having a lot of fun with the dance and the music, the body movements, everything. When I try to move a certain way with my hips there's this fucking voice in my head that's snickering saying "gay" and if I can get out of my own fucking head and just feel the music, feel myself and connect with who I'm dancing with I have a great time and I get a lot of compliments. I hate that even when I know it's wrong and even completely illogical the fear of being perceived as feminine or weak is something that I have to struggle with on a personal level.
  
  I've been transitioning for 10 years and these thoughts still haunt me sometimes 🙃
- That's how I feel about the Q
- Not sure what the link is for, I’m fine with people using it in their own life and media. But using it referring to me or in reference to lesbians makes my skin crawl as someone who used to be called that by homophobic teenagers

It’s like when I lived in Miami and everyone called me “gringo” or “flaco.” When I asked them to stop they would say it was endearing. But imagine if I called them “removed” or “fatty” what their reaction would be.
- I assume you mean Gordo and not gringo. Gringo for anyone interested literally means Greek, and in Spanish it is slang for anyone who doesn't speak Spanish. It's really not an insult, at least in US Spanish there we offensive terms for white people, so. There's that. But I know people really freak out about ''Gordo'' and it really isn't like calling fatty, it's a lot more like calling someone Bubba. Bubba isn't a slur, it's southern slang meaning bubble, and it's for people who have roundness. They don't even have to be tubby. We called my youngest brother Gordo and Goose. Idk why Goose. But Gordo was because he was a fat baby. He's in his 30s now, tall, pretty muscular, in the military. Still call him Gordo. No one calls me flaco anymore. They don't call me Gordo either. I think I'm too fat... they call me papi, because I look a lot like my grandfather now and that's what we called him.
- I mean it's very common for fat men to be nicknamed "gordo" ie fatty. Of course it's ignorant but definitely not meant offensively.
- Fatty? Is that a slur for something? Or was everybody there just overweight?
  
  Translating is always perilous. My dad said never do it. But I wouldn't translate Gordo to fatty. It's not old slang, it's not out of date, and it's not culturally offensive. It's more like calling your son ''bread ball'' or ''Lil biscuit'' or something you'd lovingly call a chubby baby.
  
  Flaco means skinny

New response if TERFism:
"Ok dipshit"

Reminds me of Nelson Piquet, a former F1 driver, calling Lewis Hamilton a Neguinho when he was talking about current day F1 drivers in an interview. He called every driver by their name except Hamilton. Then Piquet and his brother ofcourse went with the “that’s how we always call each other even my grandma calls me that” defense

We started calling my wife's narcissistic psychopathic Russian ex dipshit because we got tired of having to use his name. Now I barely remember his name, it's just dip shit
Then one day she got tired of his crap, beat the shit out of him, so now we just call him dip

Generally being nice to other people is a good thing. It makes the world a nicer place for everyone. And in cases like this, it seems like it is pretty easy to be nice - just don't call that person 'dipshit'. That just seems like a very low-cost way to show the person that you respect them.

Saved

Language is owned by the group.
Individuals don't dictate to the group.
This individual is asserting a definition of "dipshit" that contradicts the definition held by the group.
- Except there are different groups.
- are you saying it's unreasonable to ask not to be called something you don't want to be called?
  
  There's a certain societal inertia you have to push against, and it's unrealistic to expect everyone to change these patterns for you instantly. Friends/family/kind acquaintances will take some time, and others may never change for your sake.
  
  Depends, I've had people request I stop calling them "dude" or "man." The first of which being my dad, who insisted when I was young that it was disrespectful and I should call him "dad" or "father." This did not go well for him, even to this day, spoke to him last night and at one point said "Dude so I was reading this article the other day..." My grandma also requested the same, as ironic as that is in this post, and was met with similar resistance. It's like asking someone to quit saying "like," it can be done but it takes active effort to change their speech pattern, to which I say "no, it is neither disrespectful nor gendered, and I will not actively change my entire speech pattern to satiate an unreasonable demand from one person that I know, so you can either get over being called dude just like literally everyone else I talk to, or we don't have to talk, dad." I'm not doing it to piss him off, it is just how I talk.
  
  It would require a feat of marketing to shift the definition used by the group. I think that's how it's generally done. Call it reasonable or unreasonable or whatever you like.
- Wrong. The group is enslaved by its language. humans just go about vommiting grammar. utterances, words and narratives muchlike genes just seek to establish themselves and prolong their stay. There is no free will. Capricornus agnus dei Dark triad 6 6 6

"Could you call me something else, other than Dipshit?"
"Like what?"
"How about sunrise land?"

Ok, but what is it about?
- Think of something you wouldn't like to be called, and that's it.
- Slurs in general
  Misgendering
- OP is a native of Albany, NY, where everybody refers to hamburgers as steamed hams, even when it comes to their patented family recipes. This is for when OP must meet with other people who are not familiar with the regional dialect, even those from Utica, and are preparing for an unforgettable luncheon.
  
  And they call them steamed hams, despite the fact that they are obviously grilled?
  
  Ah, I see.
  
  This got me good, burst out with a loud “HA!” in a crowded coffee shop.
- the way i interpreted it is that it's about the "but dude/man/bro is gender neutral!" thing, when someone expresses that they don't like being referred to using masculine terms
  
  Edit: this is tangential to the real point of the post, which is just to not call people things they don't like.
  Bro is harder to argue for sure.
  And man, unless it's more, "oh man, that's rough" as an excalamatory rather than "good to see you man" is still gendered.
  But dude has never been gendered. It was mostly used by guys towards guys, but the origins of that usage (rather than dude ranches or the derogatory term related to that) it was applied to everyone. Dudette came along later but was essentially created because the usage was male dominated, not because dude was gendered. It's one of the rare gender neutral, inclusive slang terms. So much so that when dudette was thrown around, it got rejected as unnecessary, and was sometimes taken offensively. Same with dudina and dudess.
  Mind you, the era where it was mostly an underground slang used in African American circles is murkier, since it was underground, less written at the time, and after it got "borrowed" by white kids lost its popularity there.
  But when surfer culture picked it up, and it spread via movies, female surfers were called dude, and used it the same way as female surfers. They were just such a minority that the association didn't stick in pop culture because what got seen was Spicoli, and the association with it as being used by guys about guys got absorbed as the primary usage.
  There was no gender division in that origin, nor was there a need for it. There simply wasn't a female specific alternative to dude.
  Since it is still used inclusively far more than it isn't, it's usually better to assume the best rather than the worst. Someone duding someone in a casual and friendly way is unlikely to be using it as a gendered term. It's more like buddy, or pal, or even mate than something like bro that started gendered and is still predominantly used that way.
  
  I do actually call my mom bro, but if like, a friend or coworker said "don't call me that" I just wouldn't do it.
- My first thought was "queer." I know people who hate being called queer, but others still call them that anyway because they're "taking back the word" or something like that
  
  Fuck me I can't keep up. I thought queer was officially OK.
- I had assumed this was referring to the case years back of Elon Musk calling a British guy that was trying to help rescue some children from a submerged cave in the Philippines a "pedo".
  He was naturally sued about it but somehow avoided rightful punishment by claiming that he didn't mean literally and it was a phrase used all the time in South Africa.
  Twat waffle is a phrase we use all the time in my country. We use it whenever Elon is mentioned.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retard_(pejorative)
  
  This is the only one that I haven't been able to drop from growing up in the early 2000s. I'm good about not saying it in public, but if it's just the boys playing games or something all bets are off haha
- Take your pick, really. I can think of a couple of things just off the top of my head.

It's a very interesting take that really makes you look at things from a different perspective, but it kinda breaks down if you think about it. If this person really was saying it like a pronoun with no offense intended, and they were using it to refer to half of everyone they spoke to, and it was how other people referred to that person themself too, then it would quickly seem fine to me. If everyone is calling people dipshit all the time then it quickly becomes nothing to care about
- I disagree. If I don't like being called dispshit, the thing to do is not call me dipshit. Your intent stops mattering the moment you know how I prefer to be referred to and actively decline to respect it.
  
  At the risk of bringing up a controversial topic, this principle seems to be applied inconsistently. Eg. the people who say "men are trash" and then "if it doesn't apply to you, it shouldn't hurt you" would probably agree with your stance, but this is inconsistent.
- You could say intent matters.
  
  Depends. If you specifically have trauma from being called dipshit then it doesn't.
- Yeah, it's kinda like cunt with aussies and brits.
  
  Jesus fucking cunt, you cunt just drop cunt at every cunt you see or some cunts gonna get a cunt in their cunt about it
- Yeah it's weird, I very much agree you should respect what people want to be called (unless maybe you feel they really lost all right to be respected, but then it's an active choice to insult) but the metaphor misses me so much it gives me the opposite reaction. If someone calls me some word that is normal to them but usually offensive to me I just think that's interesting that their culture is different for that word.
  Of course the non-asshole reaction here is to just say "ah sorry, it's a normal non insulting way of calling people where I'm from, didn't mean to offend you" and do your best to stop using it, but somehow this makes it harder for me to reach that conclusion.
  
  How strong is this example?:
  If someone calls me some word that is normal to them but usually offensive to me I just think that's interesting that their culture is different for that word.
  What comes to mind here, Australian-cunt?
  That’s super interesting agreed. Like how the heck did they get on the C U Next Tuesday train?
  …but it wasn’t used to slur us domestically, so we can be neutrally bemused.
  (PS, I’m not super sensitive about language usually, just looking to draw the tightest possible parallel)
- Yes, it does break down in a hypothetical situation like the one you describe. But in reality and communication there always will be grey areas where shoe box thinking does not work out in a harmonic way. The acceptable outcome could be that person A simply dislikes person B for not respecting his/her wish and person B is okay with being disliked. Both agree to not enact policies based on their wishes. For me it seems in reality this often fails because of ambiguity intolerance.
- Yup. My coworkers like to swear, and I don't, so I just don't swear and they do. It works out pretty well. As long as I know there's no malice in it, it really doesn't bother me.
  
  The part about it not bothering you is key.
  
  This isn't even relevant. Swearing in general terms is not the same as referring directly to someone by a name they do not want to be referred to by.

I've had people say "you" is a slur.
Fuck off.
I could make a more detailed argument, but no. I should not need to.
- That drag person?
  
  Drag's never said "you" is a slur, drag doesn't even require that people use drag's preferred pronouns.
  People just get embarrassed to be misgendering drag on their own and get upset with drag about it.

LMFAO, I thought it was "nigga" for a minute there.

I understand the desire to have people use your pronouns, and as long as one can see what gender you are "presenting", one should use those pronouns.
If someone prefers other pronouns, then I'm sorry... Many people (me included) have a hard time remembering names... I wouldn't have a chance remembering a large set of different pronouns if I can't even remember the names of that person. A pronoun is a non specific way of addressing someone and a break life saver like "you"...
To to switch to an all inclusive them/they for everybody seems overreaching.
If it's not obvious what pronouns someone prefers, then they shouldn't be annoyed if someone makes repeatedly mistakes.
And this makes it hard to distinguish a mistake from an insult...
- It isn't about remembering names, it's about being willing to use the correct one when informed. Exchange pronouns for proper names to test the concept.
  If you forget someone's name and you think it is 'Pat' but it is actually 'Kelly' would you continue to call them '~~Kelly~~Pat'after remembering that it is '~~Pat~~Kelly'?
  *Edit: I love that I mixed myself up even in my example. But to prove my point I'll call the correction out and be fine with that.
  
  My problem (and many others I guess) is that i won't remember Pat or Kelly the next time. And the next time. And the next time etc etc. Especially if I only see her ever so often. No chance to remember special pronouns beyond what gender they present. He/she/him/her is relatively easy (but not always...) them/they or anything else they prefer seems overly complicated in a social setting.
  But if I remember the name and intentionally use others to taunt you, then yes, I would be a cunt. And I try not to be one...
  
  See, no, if I forget someone's name I'm entirely happy with things like "alright dude see you later," you can entirely get away without knowing someone's name. I have people I've known for years, don't know their name, not sure they know mine, and that's fine.
- The problem isn't someone getting a pronoun wrong on occasion. It's when someone deliberately uses the wrong one, and often times stresses the the pronunciation, in order to make sure you know they choose to use the wrong one deliberately.
  
  If they act like cunts, we should call them cunts. But I totally understand that's not possible in all situations, like when you have a person in power cunting all over you.
- If the same person repeatedly makes the same mistake after being corrected it's fair to think that person might be an asshole.

Imagine one would genuinely not care about being called dipshit under the given circumstances. Context and intent are more important than the choice of words. I can't call something retarded, but I can call it demented. Crazy is fine, slow isn't. If it were about people and slurs, both words would be banned, but only one is, leaving the feeling of oppression under the banner of Good rather than it being actually about change for the better.

You can call me a dumbass all you want, it's part of the reason I chose this name, besides being a dumbass.
- Whatever you say, smartass
  
  Well now I'm offended!
- Well, that's a dumbass reason
  
  Well yeah, I am a dumbass.

My siblings, Dipshit and Dipshit, know all about this. 😌
One Dipshit is transfem and is "fine" being called Dipshit; just don't deadname her.

I think both is problematic.
If you know that dipshit is not meant in a harmful way by the other person, then why do you care being called it?
Same on the other side, if you know the other person wouldn't like to be called dipshit, why would you call them that?
I really think they both have problems that they need to address within themselves.
- You make an interesting point about intent, but I think the missing part is trust. If I trust a person's intent, then their actions matter less in terms of a reason for feeling hurt. But, how many people does a typical person trust that way? Even so, after being confronted with the unintended consequences of their actions, they should realign their actions with their intent in the face of that new information.
  
  Definitely agree. It depends on the situation and context/situational clues.
  Remember that we are talking about a metaphor here, the "actual" situation that is talked about is people calling trans femme people "dude" or "bro".
  I know a bunch of people who really just use these words all the time on everyone and never were they trying to say that a woman they call that is actually a man. I suppose it's possible and happens sometimes, but I imagine it's very rare.
- That’s not how it works at all.
  The person being addressed has an issue and reasonably has requested an accommodation that costs nothing.
  The other person says nah, can’t be bothered, I don’t care how you feel. Suck it.
  These are not the same thing.
  Edit: words.
  
  It doesn't cost nothing though.
  If a person habitually calls everyone "dipshit", they need to pay close attention every time they speak with that person, making sure to think about every word coming out of their mouth and making sure none of these is "dipshit".
  Just try speaking to someone and never using "the" ever, it's incredibly hard. If you're used to speaking in a certain way, it's very hard to change and takes a lot of mental work. And it's ok if it's one word with one person... but what if everyone decides a word or multiple words isn't fine to them? It gets harder and harder.
  This is not a complete non-issue like it's being treated.
- Not wanting people to do things to you is not wrong. I don't want people to defecate on me, even in an affectionate or accidental way, even though it's not harmful. Is that wrong?
  
  I don't want you to walk next to me on the street. The view of you pisses me off.
  Is that wrong? Or am I allowed to tell you where you shall walk?
  If the person truly doesn't mean no offense with "dipshit" but you still take offense from it, that's what I'm talking about.
  Same as walking on the street, if you don't want to see the person, just don't go on the street close to them. If you don't want to hear something they're saying then don't speak to them, avoid them.
  I already said that if someone doesn't want to be called dipshit, then there's no reason to keep calling them that.
- Yes. One has a problem of being called dipshit...the other is one.
- Studies show self esteem is more impacted by the values a person grew up with than their own values. That means most of the time, developing or changing your own values doesn't increase self esteem. You need to be respected in a way that makes sense in the culture you grew up with. Some people can overcome their birth culture, but not many.

I mean just get over yourself right. Forcing someone to change their authentic self because it makes you uncomfortable seems antithetical to the trans experience.
- I'd posit that a core part of the trans experience is being able to have authority over how you wish to be refered to, actually.
  
  Yeah that checks out lol
- In this case their authentic self is an asshole, so asking them to not be an asshole just makes the world a better place. Its the same as saying that they have to tolerate the intolerance of the other person. Intolerance never has to be tolerated and should be actively pushed back on.
  
  Yeah on rethinking the fundamental nature of my statement you're probably right. I hate the stupid tolerance shit. Fuck being tolerant I'm intolerant as fuck who cares. With regards to pronouns, they are in my opinion entirely subjective. The first one that comes to my mind when looking at someone is as correct as the first word anyone else might think of. That being said I do consider the opinion of the person I'm talking about, it's just complimentary to my own interpretation of gender

one more report and I'm locking this whole mf thread