2w ago

German confusion

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I think non-Germans can't understand the deep social guilt that's been drilled into them since WWII. Since childhood they're told how horrible they were to the Jews, what atrocities they committed; they're taken on field trips to concentration camps where it's explained in graphic detail what their grandparents did to the Jews; there is a deep cultural guilt around the Holocaust, and although many different people suffered, it's specifically focused on Jews. Even I don't understand it; when I was living there I asked some question I don't even remember about the Holocaust of one of my German friends, and he quite politely told me "we don't talk about that." It's a subject of guilt and embarrassment.
It's easy to criticize the West for not taking a stand against the genocide in Palestine that Israel is perpetrating; we do not, and can not, understand what Germans (in general, there always exists some racist fascists in every country) have to overcome to take such a stand. You might think they'd be champions against genocide, but what it ended up being was cultural guilt about murdering Jews.
All those Germans in power now were the children of a generation who survived the war as children, and who all had it beaten into them how horrible a people they were and how terrible the atrocity against the Jews they executed. If any country is going to struggle with condemning Israel, it's going to be Germany, and the people who the rest of the world has been using as the villain in TV and movies for 80 years; who've been beaten on the head about the Holocaust since childhood.
- I think non-Germans can’t understand the deep social guilt that’s been drilled into them since WWII
  Except they only defend Israel...
  LGBT was a target too, is Germany standing up for LGBT?
  What about the Romani?
  What about communists?
  What about people who spoke out against genocide?
  The Jewish victims of the Holocaust made up about 50% of it's victims. Why unquestionable support for them, but not for other groups?
  It's great Germany's seeing the light now, but don't act like they had a rational excuse for blindly supporting a genocide of a different group.
  
  That's exactly the point op is making.
  
  You didn't read what I wrote; I'll assume because it was too verbose for you.
  I said
  although many different people suffered, it's specifically focused on Jews.
  and
  You might think they'd be champions against genocide, but what it ended up being was cultural guilt about murdering Jews.
  In the West we ignore the communist victims because we were in a cold war with the Communists. We ignore the LGBTQ because we also oppressed the LBGTQ communities. We didn't carve a new country out of other country's land for anyone except Jews. And the West was a, if not the, major force directing the reeducation of the German populous after WWII.
- I find this "You can't blame Germany for supporting genocide, because they're guilty about the Holocaust!" defense kind of hard to believe. After all, Germany also committed genocide against the USSR, and yet "Russia delenda est" seems to be an extremely mainstream position among Germans currently.
  It’s easy to criticize the West for not taking a stand against the genocide in Palestine
  Actually we're criticizing them for actively supporting the genocide.
  we do not, and can not, understand what Germans (in general, there always exists some racist fascists in every country) have to overcome to take such a stand.
  This is incredibly tone-deaf, given what people in Gaza are actually having to overcome.
- I think non-Germans can’t understand the deep social guilt that’s been drilled into them since WWII.
  Then why are you speculating about it.
  when I was living there I asked some question I don’t even remember about the Holocaust of one of my German friends, and he quite politely told me “we don’t talk about that.” It’s a subject of guilt and embarrassment.
  Yeah that's surely the only possible interpretation.
  Truth be told: Just by using the term "guilt" you're parroting Nazi talking points. It's the precise type of rhetoric they're driving, and you're a dogwhistle's understanding away from "The Jews invented the Holocaust to shame Germany to keep it from being strong".
  Maybe that's why people didn't want to talk to you about it.
  For people actually interested in understanding it, instead of merely having an opinion: Start by distinguishing between "guilt" and "responsibility", the latter not in the sense of culpability, but... OSHA.
  The whole Israel thing is actually distinct from that. If, tomorrow, Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir etc were to keel over and we'd have the second coming of Rabin, the collective sigh of relief in Germany would knock the earth off axis. The trouble is supporting, at the same time a) Israel to exist within its internationally recognised borders and b) supporting the same thing for Palestine allthewhile c) fascists on both sides making shit impossible.
  There's been plenty of criticism within Germany towards the hesitant stance of the government. On the flipside, what you also don't see is German media -- also public, also state media (DW) sugar-coating what's happening in Gaza.
  For the longest time the government kept to its age-old approach of working the Israelis quietly, in the background. Stuff that, on occasion, led them to relent on settlement projects etc. Germany did it that way because it was a way to influence things while keeping an in. That seems to be over because there's no "in" with Israel any more, they're simply not listening to things they don't want to hear.
- Thank you.
- I don't think Germans visiting those concentration camps paid any attention and I don't think they have any guilt towards the Holocaust whatsoever.
  If they did Germans would be absolutely disgusted with a new genocide happening with German support. Hell the AfD neo-Nazis are the most popular party in Germany these days.
  Germany similar to the USA has a very strong Zionist lobby and that's it. They do not care about the Holocaust.
  
  This is such an ill informed and disgusting comment. It comes from a place of media propaganda. Germany is having an issue with the AfD, yes, but the rest of the world is also struggling with far right extremism and its rise to power again. Go to Germany, you’ll change your outlook on the people, the culture, and hopefully regret the blanket statement you just made.
  
  If they did Germans would be absolutely disgusted with a new genocide happening with German support. Hell the AfD neo-Nazis are the most popular party in Germany these days.
  Believe me, many of us are disgusted. Not only the AfD has grown, the leftist party DIE LINKE has almost tripled their poll results over the last year. The problem is that the left half of the spectrum (SPD, Grüne and LINKE) still can't agree which flavor of "left" is the correct one so they rather blame each other than form a coalition which leaves the CDU/CSU as the strongest power that can just dictate what happens and the SPD has to go along with it out of fear that otherwise the CDU will eventually work with the AfD.
  
  The Holocaust once came up in conversation with a German and he was moved to tears. He was an older generation though, somewhat less removed from the reality.
  
  Wow. Some preconceptions you have there.
Honestly i am surprised. I expected Merz to become the EUs last man standing on the Israeli side.
- He is. Remember that they are not stopping the sales of arms to Israel. These are only "strong words" to appear a little less nazis.
  
  Luckily the internet will remember who went mask off and thought they'd get away with it by just putting it back on.
- He's doing the Democrat thing now where he is "working tirelessly towards a ceasefire".
- The last men standing were always going to be the extreme-right thugs that have been meeting with the Israeli diplomats Netanyahu has been using as his personal money couriers.
  
  Yeah true, i had active political leaders in mind, but there is an increasing overlap between those and the thugs you described.
I love how this thread devolved into
but has anyone thought about what the Germans went through. Give them a break, they are working through the trauma of Ww2.

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