Hamas officials say 13 killed in blast outside Gaza City's Al-Shifa hospital
Hamas officials say 13 killed in blast outside Gaza City's Al-Shifa hospital
Israel said it hit an ambulance it said was carrying Hamas operatives without specifying where.
At least 13 people have been killed in a blast outside Gaza City's biggest hospital, the Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says.
BBC Verify has verified graphic videos showing badly injured and possibly dead people lying outside the hospital.
The Israeli military has confirmed it struck an ambulance that it says was being used by Hamas operatives.
It did not say where the air strike took place.
"An IDF aircraft struck an ambulance that was identified by forces as being used by a Hamas terrorist cell in close proximity to their position in the battle zone," it said in a statement.
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Always say that Hamas was doing X.
Stop killing innocent people. Unless there intention is to radicalise more people.
If you killed my family I’d probably join Hamas.
The other thing is they justify it saying they drove us to this, but what drives Hamas to commit evil acts? Is it the oppression!
Back in the early days after 9/11, some brilliant genius made a Flash game to explain the problem:
You have a crowded marketplace filled with people in stereotypical Arab dress, and one terrorist. He's easy to spot because he has a gun.
Take your mouse, point and click on the terrorist, boom. Dead.
The collateral damage from killing the terrorist impacts the civilians around him creating 3-5 more terrorists. You can't "win", there will always be another terrorist. Your own actions perpetuate them.
The idea being to teach the player that the violent action of killing the first terrorist is, itself, the wrong action. "The only winning move is not to play" and all that.
The problem for us, as citizens of the 21st century, is that first action and which side took it is so far removed from living memory that all we get is a continual string of arguments of "Well you did x" and "but you did y" and "we wouldn't have had to do y except that you did z".
We aren't going to get ANYWHERE until someone steps back and says "Yes, what Hamas did were war crimes, and what Israel is doing in response are ALSO war crimes." One does not justify the other.
Is it the oppression!
Objectively not. Most of the decision makers for Hamas live comfortably in Quatar.
It's probably the multi-decades long commitment to genocide.
You think Israel has been planning this genocide for that long? Interesting take that I'd yet to hear.
Hum… like just see what the far-right Zionist militias in the 20-30s had to say, or what the first prime minister of Israel had to say. Or what they fucking did in 1948? A literal genocide, the Nakba. Like genocide has ALWAYS been their goal.
The state of Israel was founded as a colonial settler project. If you have never heard this before I'd be shocked to learn you're from anywhere but the US
Hamas has had genocide in its charter since it's establishment.
Saying they want Israel to stop existing is VERY different from calling for a genocide. And calling for “landback” is very far from genocide…
Oh they (Hamas leadership) explicitly have called for genocide separately too. In another place in this thread I linked an article where their spokesman said their goal was to continue to do more Oct 7 attacks until all the Jews were killed.
They never said “until all Jews” are killed.
Palestinians and Hamas can make the distinction between Jewish people and Israel.
Something Israel is incapable of doing. On purpose of course.
I'm going to ask what I've asked others who have made this "point" have you googled it.
Like this is a pretty basic, fundamental goal of Hamas. It's not even denied by them when asked.
Literally no evidence, just mainstream propaganda and manipulated quotes lmao. Like we really ought to believe articles that come out the Atlantic? Bro try harder.
Click the link. Hamas doesn't deny their desire to kill every Jewish person.
Their leadership when given the opportunity has consistently clarified that they indeed want genocide.
Can you clarify what they said then?
I can say confidently that I’ve seen plenty of Israeli leaders saying they clearly want to either kill or expel all Arabs and non-Jews from Israel.
I’ve never seen the same from Hamas leadership (and even less from other Palestinian groups - like Fatah and PFLP) that what they want is to either kill or expel all Jews from Palestine…
I’ve never seen the same from Hamas leadership (and even less from other Palestinian groups - like Fatah and PFLP) that what they want is to either kill or expel all Jews from Palestine…
Have you looked?
This is from just three days ago :
Ghazi Hamad, a member of Hamas's political bureau, praised the brutal attack the group carried out in Israel on October 7 and said if given the opportunity, they would carry out similar assaults repeatedly in the future with the goal of eliminating Israel, The Times of Israel reported.
And they've said similar shit my entire life.
Eliminating Israel == calling for a genocide.
Israel is an apartheid fascist state. It should be dismantled. And a new secular state with equal rights for all should be made in its place.
That is the position of most Palestinians. Some even wish for a two state solution, for some reason.
But saying Israel shouldn’t exist is not genocidal, anti-semitic or anything. It’s just fucking human.
Eliminating Israel == calling for a genocide.
Did you read the articles on it? Are you aware of what happened on Oct 7? Advocating for the repeated indiscriminate killing, raping and enslavement of civilians is calling for a genocide.
I don't think we have the same definitions of genocide if mass murder and rape isn't part of yours.
It's an interesting question, because normally forcibly evicting an entire nationality would be genocide. But is it genocide if it's evicting the colonizers? What if it's been 50 years? A hundred?
I'm not sure one way or another, it's just interesting to think about.
But is it genocide if it's evicting the colonizers? What if it's been 50 years? A hundred?
Yes. To all of them yes.
Like if it was 1946, there's be no question that supporting the partition plan Britian was working on would be a bad idea.
But to call for the return of the land to Israeli would be the equivalent of calling for the return of the Dakotas to the Lakota in 1960/70s (during the AIM movement). Or calling for the eviction of all whites from Oklahoma in the 1970/80s.
That's about the same 70-80 year timeframe from "original sin" to today that we have going on in the West Bank.
That is indeed tricky.
But I don’t think WE can find the solution. Only the people who suffered the injustice of colonialism can say what is “enough justice”. Only they know what would help mend the wounds.
(Of course there are some extremist violent minorities in the resistance, but most Palestinians would agree they just want a land and freedom).
The original reason for a Jewish state, before it got corrupted by extremism, was to live in peace and be respected, instead of constantly persecuted and killed. That may have been true in the 1800s, but I'm not sure if it still is. It certainly doesn't seem like it's enough to really stop it. That original reason is also a bit ironic considering what most Palestinians want.
Perhaps the best solution would be to form a unified state with a secular government that fiercely protected the ethnicities living in the country. That I think would displace the fewest people.
No ethnostate can exist with peace. Jewish people are safer in the US than in Israel. And that was also true after WW2.
Creating a COLONIAL settler apartheid state where a bunch of people already lived? That is fucking dumb.
Typical British colonial thinking, I agree. The ethnostate made sense at the time it was first discussed. This was Russian revolution era, so the European states were each effectively ethnostates.
I mean that's not what they're talking about (they're just being a bigot), but this is just an escalation of the genocide that started in 1967.
I'm not sure that's what he meant. @mwguy could you clarify about Israels multi-decade long commitment to genocide? You're not a bigot either, right MW?
Tiny Pizza, Has has had a multi-decades long commitment to genocide. My whole life Hamas has been calling for the murder of every Jew on the planet consistently.
Really? How many did they kill?
As many as they've been able too. They went from stonings to gunfights to suicide bombers to rocket artillery to paraglider slave raids in my lifetime.
My whole life I've seen them dedicate more and more firepower to explicitly killing civilians
It's weird because I read that comment as saying hamas is motivated by its founding desire to eradicate Israel. Everyone else seems to be reading as Israel is motivated to destroy or takeover Palestine. Both are pretty genocidal atm tho. Poor civilians trapped in the middle.
Interesting. I guess we'll have to see what he says!
If Hamas is based in Qatar why are they bombing hospitals and refugee camps in Gaza?
Hamas top leadership is in Quatar. They're insulated from the society they've created.
So the "wipe out hamas" operation is actually just a collective punishment for an organisation that they dont even think is based in Gaza. Glad you're willing to admit that
There's an estimated 40,000 strong Hamas army in the Gaza strip. That army has leaders and infrastructure on the ground in the Strip and was used to attack Israel on their big attack.
Eliminating the ability for that army to conduct operations is Israel's goal. Just because their (Hamas) top political and military leaders are based in Quatar doesn't mean Hamas isn't in the Gaza Strip.
So no, it's not an organization based outside of Gaza.