Rule
Rule
Rule
Real question: what do anarchists expect society to do/become and why is it better?
Nuanced answers only
So if you ask a group of 5 leftists of any sort how they imagine society might be structured you'll get 6 answers. Anarchists are no different, it's difficult because it's off the map yeah?
The common thread is a society with no involuntary impositions of power and authority. That isn't no rules, many societies in the past and present have varying degrees of hierarchy and even within the same society the degree of hierarchy can change depending on what groups of people are doing.
you know how when you organise a family gathering nobody is "in charge" exactly? people select tasks they are suited to or feel it's their turn to do and go about doing them. People might choose to defer decisions to another person but always retain the ability to withdraw that consent and so on?
Anarchists imagine a society more like that, where when a person wants something done they assemble a group of people, communicate their ideas, reach a consensus on whether it should or shouldn't be done, if people agree then they organise themselves into a group to accomplish the task.
It's really not so different from how you probably conduct yourself most of the time. It's actually kinda rare for people to use coercive violence to get people to cooperate. Anarchists think we can all just take a few more steps towards being anarchists all the time.
As to why would it be better? well what feels better: cooking at a community gathering or working at a restaurant with your boss breathing down your neck?
This sounds a whole lot like the indigenous peoples of various lands until the imperial machines of war rolled them over. These days, I don't think you need a military budget rivaling America's, but I think some form of military defensive structures would need to remain in place to protect your massive hippie nation-state from opportunistic neighbors.
No involuntary impositions of power and authority is the centrist position. The anarchist position should be no impositions of power and authority even if they are voluntary. A perfect example of voluntary power and authority is wage labor. By any usable standard, wage labor is voluntary. Anarchists should object to wage labor because it involves a hierarchy of alienation. This violates workers' inalienable rights, which are rights that can't be given up even with consent
So, honest question, genuinely not here to argue but to learn: how is this approach scalable to a society of millions, or even billions? What are some thoughts on this?
It seems to me that any society in history that operates this way successfully consists of small groups of people living very differently than we generally do today, often sharing a common ethnic or familial bond or some common purpose. Although I'm sympathetic to anarchism in principle and in smaller groups, human society seems to have gone beyond any hope of a successful anarchic turnover long ago. Any breakdown of societal order seems to result in bad actors taking advantage, even when such developments seem positive at first. And any positive ahierarchical community that becomes too big eventually becomes corrupted it seems.
This seems very naive and superficial, which is, as far as I know, what other philosophers criticise about anarchism.
a group of people, communicate their ideas, reach a consensus on whether it should or shouldn’t be done, if people agree then they organise themselves into a group to accomplish the task
That's exactly how the state as a concept came into existence. How are we not currently living in the consequence of what people reached out of anarchy? It seems like we are already living what anarchists suppose will happen in an anarchist society.
It’s actually kinda rare for people to use coercive violence to get people to cooperate.
looks at human history What?
cooking at a community gathering or working at a restaurant
What does that have to do with anarchism?
Most people have a very flaws understanding of anarchism. It absolutely is NOT a society without rules, that's chaos and where the most physically powerful will rule, which is objectively a terrible thing and a big step backwards.
Anarchism is not really a system of government, but the philosophical belief that there should not be a heiarchy in societal laws. It can be applied in many different forms of goverment, most commonly with democracy but there are plenty of anarcho-communist out there. The gist is that systems that promote one group being shown favor, especially at the expense of another, should be dismantled. And what replaces it should be set up to serve and protect all people evenly.
This usually means police abolition and refocusing that energy on the underlining reasons people break "the law". Like providing a minimum level of housing, income and food to all.
I can't summerize the books succiently, but if you are interested The Dispossed and The Conquest of Bread deals with more examples.
Restructuring society around principles of Mutual Aid and other forms of Cooperative systems. Participatory Economics, for example, is a promising idea.
The chief philosophy is a rejection of all hierarchy, but not a rejection of order or society.
Looking at the replies it seems anarchism is about having strong yet diverging opinions on the definition of anarchism
That's just the general leftist experience. From Marxist-Leninists to Orthodox Marxists to Anarcho-Communists to Anarcho-Syndicalists to Democratic Socialists to Left Communists (ICP flavor) to Left Communists (Dutch/German flavor) to Libertarian Socialists to Market Socialists to Marxist-Leninist-Maoists to Dengists to Council Communists to everything in between, each seemingly hates the guts of the others.
Ask any one from each of these and they will all have a general "worker ownership of the Means of Production is good" base, with about a million different takes on what that actually means and what that actually looks like.
In general, I think it's safe to say that democracy is a good thing, decentralization helps protect against Authoritarianism, and moving towards a Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society is a good thing. Until then, people should learn and improve their understanding as much as possible, teach others, organize local communities and unions, and work on self-improvement.
I don't actually know all that much about it, but the anarchists that I know are all about communities and mutual support and stuff. So I guess they think government is bad and communities supporting each other is good.
Personally I wonder what they'd call it when a community gets really good at providing a particular type of support and they agree to pool their resources to efficiently provide said support to all members of the community.
You're basically describing a coop.
The thing is that these resources could get withdrawn in case that community can't won't supply that support anymore.
Personally I wonder what they’d call it when a community gets really good at providing a particular type of support
Most of them would say, "close enough."
Different
Some people are so negatively affected by society and its structures, literally anything would be better.
See: Brodie in Dogma.
Some people are very shortsighted and don't comprehend how bad it can get. No one living in a G20 country can accurately make this claim
Most people talking about anarchy just want to f*** some s*** up because they feel powerless or threatened or boxed in. But that's not what anarchy is or how it functions as a community structure.
A good way to think about anarchism as an actual community structure, as a commune, is to think about the native Americans pre colonization.
Anarchism is not the absence of societal or authority structures, it's freedom to create your own rules within your community and exist separately from other communities.
So each native American tribe had their own rules and their own territory and within that territory their rules were absolute, but 20 mi over other tribe had their own rules and territory and their rules were absolute.
It's actually pretty similar to the idea of having separate states that get to make their own laws in the United States(guns and prostitutes are fine in one state but get you years of prison in another), except that anarchy has only worked in small groups because unless you have strict rules within each community, one bad actor can spoil an entire community of 200 people.
So after your tribe grows too large(a state) it's unsustainable without smaller communities(towns) within your tribe using bureaucracy/authority to keep people in line.
Wrong. Most people who consistently only support hierarchy without logic or critique also support laws without basis
A dismantling of hierarchies of all kinds. No rulers, no masters. The people would manage themselves.
It's better because it's a society based on mutual aid instead of exploitation. There are different theories about how exactly it will look like or how you get there. But overall most agree that it's a non-hierarchical society, based on self-management and federalism. Decisions are made through direct democracy. If you want to read more there is a good chapter about it here Final Objectives: Social Revolution and Libertarian Socialism.
I think some anarchists are just angry. But "anarchy" as a type of government, means a society without leaders. (Anarchos means "without kings") just people living peacefully, helping each other, without anyone really needing to be in charge.
For more info read V for Vendetta. The movie didn't really cover this well, but the book makes it feel like the next stage of human evolution.
means a society without leaders.
You are correct... the word anarchos means "without kings." Kings aren't leaders, though... they are cogs of institutionalized power, just like CEOs and prime ministers. Nobody chooses to follow them - people are coerced into doing so through force.
So no... anarchists have no problems with actual leaders - they have plenty of examples of anarchist leaders themselves, Nestor Makhno just being one.
I can tell you Anarchism is misunderstood. Sure, there are some utopians, but every political ideology has them. Personally, I believe syndicalism is the way to go, that's why I'm in the IWW. A federation of industrial unions with a focus on creating a culture of care and personal autonomy in the small scale could work. Sure, right now there's a lot of work needing to be done, but what can you expect after decades of repression?
They don't really expect society. Society relies on rules and common understanding, actual anarchy would lack society.
No anarchy doesn't necessarily mean no contracts it's about having faith in a society upholding contracts without a need to rely on a government. Think of crypto itself. Now imagine enabling humanity to enforce this degree of accountability in the real world.
Plans and policy can be scrutinized and actualised with transparency, but with governments, problems happen sometimes
This is a cool thread you've started. Thanks for contributing to healthy discourse on lemmy :)
Whatever Dennis the Peasant from Monty Python and the Holy Grail is talking about
Eat soup, apparently?
Anarchism
From a most basic standpoint, nothing besides awareness, because the way i see it the world is and has always been Anarchy. We can make as many complex laws, rules and regulations as we want but the fact is that people can choose to break them. The reality of crime is proof that in the end personal decisions will always be a higher form of authority. We are mostly ok because most people choose to follow laws and there is more good in people and bad.
The difference is that right now we seem to live in a world where people really believe that they are born as subjects to serve. the notion to "earn a living" is a clear example. No one is born by choice, we where given a body and a mind just like any other species and we did what we needed to to grow up and survive in the socio-geological location we happened to be in.
gotta remember that can of soup so you can feed your family
Lol, I was also curious about the soup. Thank you for explaining.
Didn't expect such debate, are y'all having a good time ?
I tend to feel this way until I get a good enough feel to say "compañero" hehehe
This is me, but theocracy with a God emperor + a tiny bit of mass genocide 🤑
Spice must flow
Yeah best to be yourself rather than to hide your true self.