US men are dying much earlier than women, as death 'gender gap' widens: Study
US men are dying much earlier than women, as death 'gender gap' widens: Study
They talk about a few causes, but this is the gist of it for anyone who doesn't want to click:
Researchers cited the pandemic as the biggest factor in the widening gender gap; it took a heavier toll on men. Unintentional injuries and poisonings (mostly drug overdoses), accidents and suicide were other contributors.
Still is, men are still dying more from Covid and in excess deaths from related conditions that are elevated like heart attacks and strokes.
The declining cd4 and cd8 cell counts however will strike men and women equally over time.
There are also studies that show men are less likely to got to a doctor or they go to late. In part that is because most male bodies tend to take longer before heavy symptoms are coming up but then they progress faster.
It has something to do with differences in immune system of men and women. When for example a man and a woman are infected with the same amount of viruses the women's immune system will react faster so she gets symptoms earlier and goes to the doctor earlier as well. The man won't have any symptoms but then the infection will suddenly progress fast when a critical amount of viruses is reached.
It's of course more complex and there are tons of studies about it, but I think that's something to keep in mind "in practice".
This comes on top of the gender stereotypes which make some men shun the doctor.
That's because in addition to the disinformation, many men also have to do the macho thing: https://youtu.be/1chYhsp3NRw
I forgot that suicide was super macho.
Fuck Joe Rogan. At some level I want to say “if you are really going to take advice from Joe Rogan and other idiots online, Darwin will just be checking off posthumous boxes,” but I’ve seen too many family members be trapped and warped by social media into believing garbage that I realize it’s the fault of the system. People have always profited off of needless human death, it’s way worse though when it’s a podcaster spewing garbage.
Americans also just generally live shorter lives than people in other developed countries:
Men trend more conservative than women overall (6 in 10 committed conservatives are men - pew) so more of them probably fell for the disinformation and denialism during the pandemic. Yes, we know that Republicans died more from COVID, to the tune of 15% more excess deaths.
i wonder if this is correlated with the loneliness increase / the loneliness gap. if you're a guy, lonely, prone to depression, in a crumbling post-capitalist society that's getting more malignant by the day....how much will to live can you have
Nah, the older men I know either won't go to a doctor because they didn't need them when they were younger, are scared of them, can man up through whatever pain they have, whatever. These are folks with Medicare, so at least access to doctors. These are all married men with kids. They don't go until they're literally forced to and by then, it's already too late and they just die.
I won’t go to a doctor because my experience with doctors is they tell me I’m imagining it, refuse to order any tests, then send me a bill for hundreds of dollars for the privilege of hearing them gaslight me about my symptoms.
I won’t open up emotionally to people for similar reasons: experience of it going wrong.
Sounds all too familiar. I blame the pain pendulum swinging too far the other way. Doctors do a he'll of a lot more then manage pain... but to a patient pain is usually the number one reason they are in front of the doctor. When the doctor will not even write the smallest script to alleviate their pain, or even worse accuses them of being a drug seeker either directly or with their indirect language (that we can all read through) men tend to give up. If you can't even help me with the easiest part, or are going to become adversarial about it then what's the point of going to the doctor? Obviously that question is rhetorical...
They really need to loosen their grip on low level pain meds and really start diverting people into pain management programs when necessary. This opioid backlash has only hurt the general public. Pain doesn't just disappear if you don't treat it, this just leads more people into buying diverted scripts, becoming their own doctor and then eventually using fentanyl pills or just "heroin".
I'd rather die than ever see the medical bill.
quick question, how is this any different for women?
It's less acceptable for men to open up, it's one of the toxic masculinity traits that harms men the most.
Men and women seem to make friends differently. Men have more of a tendency to make friends through work. The change in work culture can cause these to collapse more easily. It's particularly harsh at retirement. They not only lose their day-to-day reason to go on, but the friendship net that should help them.
By comparison, women tend to make friends independently of work. This makes their friendships more tolerant to changing jobs, or leaving work. Women also seem to be better at maintaining friendships at a distance.
Lastly, there is the (slightly controversial) glass floor. It's the inverse of the glass ceiling. Both men and women have a bias to help women in distress over men. This makes it a lot more likely that someone will step in to help, before the downward spiral gets too deep. This is partially why men make up a large proportion of the homeless.
It isn't. When you look at studies they reveal that loneliness is very prevalent in multiple groups of people and in general. In some studies older women are the most lonely group.
Gender and Age Differences in Loneliness: Evidence for People without and with Disabilities
There is much activity by anti-feminists in particular to push the narrative that men are the most lonely group and that of course the reason are women. This is heavily pushed by media because people seemingly like that idea more than that gender stereotypes targeting men are potentially more at fault.
To live? Not much. To riot? Plenty.
This is the energy I wish everyone carried.
The loneliest group is older women, btw. Not that anyone cares, though...
I want to kill myself because I hate myself, not because of capitalism. This kind of doomer shit doesn't fucking help anyone. The absolute hopeless outlook of people on social media is pathological at this point.
You're all loved. You're valid. We're not gonna let anyone murder you en masse. Things will get better. It might be slower than we'd like at times, but nobody has been able to stop progress yet.
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it's own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such. Gain some empathy.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No. They fought against the standards of the time, and they had support from other groups. They didn't have that support just because of their genetics, but also because other people had some goddamned empathy. We need to move past the "fuck you, I got mine" as a society if we EVER want things to be good overall. Nothing really excludes you from doing that, at least not if you actually care about others. I don't even really care if someone has a damned disco ball down there, it's horrible that people feel the NEED to live in a way that cuts their life short.
If you hear that a large group of people is dying young, the correct response is to figure out why, and solve it. The correct response is not to turn it into a competition or to blame the people who died so young. The correct response is to try to find a solution, and to possibly literally save lives. You are a bad person if you are happily ok with this going on. If you hate half of the population so badly that you don't care about their death, you have no business telling that population how to live or how to be happy.
It's tragic really. Imo, this is yet another situation where tradition and societal pressures kill people. Don't be miserable to try to make dead people happy. Dead people who cared so little, that they didn't put anything in place to help you in the future. Dead people who only cared about what they personally experienced during their time on earth. Dead people who had a very large hand in causing most of the pain that these people are feeling today.
Dudes reading this, I know it might be difficult depending on where you are, but please check up on your friends. Don't tease them when they open up about serious things, and please listen to them talking about things they love. Change starts with you, and it starts with me. We can make a new future, and we don't have to keep trying to please the people who will never see it.
Try to not be too hard on yourself, you're probably doing the best that you can. Your best might "look like" 20% one day, and 80% the next, but it will still be YOUR 100%. You are only human, and no one is perfect. Please keep up the hobbies that you love, and always look towards better and brighter things. Some days that might be looking forwards to Friday, and other days that might be discovering a new passion. Love unconditionally, and build yourself and others up relentlessly. The odds that you specifically exist are so miniscule that it could almost be considered a miracle.
Even if it might not feel like it today, you are important. You have value. No one else out there has your exact combination of attributes, and only you can fill that role. Even if you're in your 50's, you can still pursue your passions and dreams. Many of the people who poop on your ambitions are people who regret not fulfilling their own. Don't listen to angry people for live advice, as their methods are the best way to stay angry.
Please keep doing your best, and best wishes to y'all. It's tough out there and I can't imagine how tough it would feel to go at it alone. Strive for a better tomorrow, and never give up. Giving up is the only way to guarantee that this continues.
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it’s own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Tbh I only mentioned it because I saw other comments trying to turn the post into yet another game "who has it worse" or "who can we blame so we don't have to put any effort into fixing it".
I also saw some toxic comments stating that men should just pull themselves out of it. I brought up the rights situation because it was another scenario that required more than just one group of people to make any proper change. We've done it before, why not again?
Expecting a group that is already struggling with life to suddenly magic themselves better is unrealistic at best. So, I tried to remind people that working together would be better.
What's your point?
Competition? What do women have to do with this? Who is happily ok with this going on? Who are you talking to?
He didn't write anything against that.
Stfu
Ironic that the thread is about men dying on average younger than women, and the majority of the responses are people completely ignoring that fact and instead just taking an opportunity to negatively stereotype men so they can shit on them collectively.
Are we in the same thread? Feel like I'm missing that going on
Pshew - look at that pendulum swing...
Men typically die younger than women across the world. Men tend to be higher risk takers and tend to be less social due to toxic masculinity. The strength of your social network is a huge factor in anyone's lifespan/quality of life. Then in the west you have the "manosphere" (Joe Rorgan, Andrew Tate etc.) as a very popular men's place for socializing, which is isolating in it's own right and drives things that are, once again, already predominant traits in men like going to see doctors less and listening to their advice less.
These are the things I'm seeing brought up and they're all real known phenomenon. Where's the lie?
That’s fine. My job as a man is to die first. Is that toxic masculinity? Yes. Is it stupid? Also yes. But I’d rather die on my lawnmower than acknowledge feelings. I will go out 6 years early like a man.
I will work 12hr days and sacrifice my health for my family. Toxic maybe, but my duty as a man.
I'll eat that 12oz sirloin and wash it down with beer and whiskey every night. Just so someone doesn't call me gay. Doesn't matter how many dudes I fuck in the ass!
Get that umbrella away from me faaaag.
You know I really question how many children are gonna grow up in the world basically fatherless, or with an absent father, because there's this idea that the man has to be the one sacking everything they have in order to "put food on the table". Gone for most of the day, devoid of energy when they come home, meat on the chopping block. I wonder how many kids would pick a better house, brand name foods, more toys, over more time spent with their dad.
It’s telling that your first reaction is to joke about the issue. Imagine someone talking about wage gaps and people making a joke about women.
spits out elk jerky
Hey now don't waste the elk jerky
You cant say with certainty that that is the cause because there are many other numerous factors that can cause this
joe rogan is an idiot though
Obvious joke is obvious lol
Does this mean that I can also make jokes about the massive gaps in other situations against women?
There are way more male than female politicians: Maybe if you stop bickering about emotional bullshit you'd be liked and voted for.
There are way more men than women in the tech sector: I mean hey women know how to make a good dish and men know how to code a good porn site.
There are more men holding executive positions in public companies: Listen, that's on you if your work goes to shit for a week every month.
I could go on but you get the idea. Is that OK?
Sounds like you took that personally...
Yeah buddy it's the women who are too emotional. This is definitely a completely proportionate and rational reaction
It’s punching down. You can make jokes like that and nobody is going to punish you for it but they will think you’re a jackass.
If that’s what you think a joke is maybe give up on trying for a comedy career.
No, it's not okay. My parents didn't have me to be your f*cking 'Chef.' Learn to cook a decent meal for yourself a**hole.
Oh good. Another article about men struggling with X. This certainly means that help is coming, right? Right guys?
The help: “Remember guys, it’s okay to not be plagued by X”
It's ok to be weak without support structures, you'll be fine. It's ok to not have friends, making friends is hard, 15% of the male population having no close friends is something you can work past, you'll be fine. It's ok to have mental health problems, despite there not being any help or support for them, it's ok to let them take over your life from time to time, lonely men's bills pay themselves, right?
But you're men, you're meant to be strong, and stoic, and nothing is meant to phase you emotionally. You're allowed to cry, just don't be pathetic looking when you do it. Cry like a fucking man.
Another article you don’t want to mention to someone else on account of being shamed for acknowledging men have problems at all 😃
It's not phrased as how this is actually a women's issue, so no.
Has anybody considered that maybe we don't want to live longer?
My entire life, I feel like my only value as a person has been to provide financial benefit to others. There is no passion. There is only obligation.
I've met those obligations. Those obligations required a whole lot of struggle and doing whatever was necessary with no regard to my physical or mental well-being. If at any time I tried to take pause and do something for myself, I was considered loathsome and..favorite zeitgeist buzzword, toxic. Only when I returned to giving all of myself to others was there any tolerance of my existence.
Now in my fifties, I'm tired. I don't mean I'm I need a nap tired. I mean it at an existential level.
I refuse to spend my remaining years in doctors offices as they systemically extract every remaining dollar I've got while telling me I'm a terrible person for not living a perfectly physical life. I'll choose the early exit and a nice clean estate to leave to my daughter.
When my time comes, I will go quietly into that cold dark void, and I will do so enthusiastically. I see no value in prolonging the inevitable merely for the benefit of others. Let me have this one small thing
I'm so sorry to read this. It must be ok to do stuff for yourself, anybody that tells you no is the one being toxic. As they say in fight club, you are not defined by your job. Especially in this time of AI and extreme automation, we must normalise that not having a job, or not living for your job, doesn't mean you are worthless. This is valid for women as well, btw.
It sounds like you have personal issues that go beyond aging
It's not personal issues, it's patriarchal issues. Just about every guy I know past a certain age, myself included, feel the burn from this. You are expected to just give give give and anytime you have needs, including some damn rest, you are looked down on for it and marginalized. You don't see how much of a dog shit deal this is until you burn out.
Seems like you are in a tight spot. It must be immensely hard for you to feel the burden of "having to give" while it seems that nobody really cares about your well-being and gives back. I'm really sorry for you. It's obvious that you're far from happy about that. That's only natural. I bet most people would feel the same if they were in your spot. And yet, it really sucks that no one around you seems to see.
I can understand that you got exhausted by all of this and don't want to continue living like that any longer than you need to.
I hope I don't cross any line, whith the following. My apologies if that happens. Please feel free to ignore this completely if you'd rather not talk more about this.
Would you like to change your situation if it were possible somehow?
You said that you were misunderstood as "loathsome" and "toxic" when you tried to care for yourself. If it's okay for you to tell us more about your situation: How did that happen?
I wish the men in my life would visit a doctor, get an annual check up, and take more preventative measures protecting their health.
I'm blessed to have good health/dental insurance and I guarantee you I make sure I get my money's worth from it. I get my annual physicals, my required pokings and proddings, etc.
Maybe you should talk to them first instead of wishing for them to pay for help not involving you.
You’re victim blaming
It's a lot cheaper for women to act like adults and stop treating them like utter dog shit.
You wanna throw in blaming immigrants too? It's right there, easy pickings. C'mon, you know you want to.
That's weird. Well, I'm gonna go catch a speeding bullet with my teeth, wish me luck!
Good luck, we're all counting on you.
100% with you on opioids being a leading cause.
To your 2nd point: in pretty much all drug abuse/addiction, men are more likely to abuse or become dependent, and they tend to use higher amounts on average.
The addiction rates of legally prescribed opioids is surprisingly small. The problem was pill mills and diversion to the secondary market. People who are looking to get high tend to have a very large chance of becoming addicted. If anything the pendulum has cut people on both sides. First they had pill mills and pills flooded the streets. Then they basically stopped almost all prescriptions and then you had everyone all the sudden scrambling for pills, real pills evaporated quickly. Fentanly 30s started flooding the streets and then just fentanyl powder sold as H, because why pay more for a pill if it's the same stuff.
It feels like if the issue involves men it is not considered important. Boys struggle in school more now but only girls get attention, young men die to violence more, middle aged men die to suicide more, etc.
As a man, I'm okay with this. Take care of others, first. I have been afforded a myriad of privileges simply because my genitals are external. We could do with less men, honestly. I know a lot of misogynistic assholes and the world would have been better if they'd been aborted or castrated.
So I’ll be honest and say I have no want to prolong my life any longer than I absolutely have to. I have a myriad of mental issues, no plans to start or have a family and in general very little want to live another 50ish years.
I think that’s not uncommon in a lot of men either. There’s very little incentive to make it that long anymore. I’ll be working till the day I die and some poor choices in my life up to this point have put a significant damper on what’s left.
no plans to start or have a family
Do you want to start/have a family? Society seems to pressure people into the mindset of wanting to "start a family", but many people don't actually want to, and that's fine too.
Nope, and while that’s a fine choice to make, it still leaves me pretty much alone for the remainder of my life.
I don’t like making friends, nor am I good at it, and whenever I do manage to make one it fades away extremely fast no matter the effort I put in. Which makes it very clear it’s a me problem, so I just stopped trying.
Are you getting help?
I did for a while. It never eased the existential dread of existing another day, so I eventually stopped once my therapist and I agreed that I could be a functioning member of society.
Talking about things doesn’t really do much for me. I’m extremely self-aware of why I am the way that I am, and it’s something I’ve come to peace with. I’m not necessarily unhappy, just content with living a very, very uneventful and short life.
I'm guessing no, since that would defeat the entire point of what they just said. I can relate to this.
As long as men are going to be the ones having to do the grunt work, having to be the one to bring in the money and do the dangerous jobs, this will never change.
Unfortunately, most people don't want that to change.
People who want to maintain traditional gender roles don't want change. Feminists on the other hand would like to see more women in trades and more men in nursing/teaching and do want change.
The craziest part to me is when people act like it's the opposite way around.
Really? In a country where there is a resturante that is called "heartattack" and a healtcare system that is called "unamerican"? I can't fathom how this is possible.
One of the factors where feminists don't insist on equality...
@science
@Treczoks @realitista
No? As a feminist, I do want to see men stop subscribing to toxic masculinity. I want us to realize that it's okay to seek help and it's okay to be vulnerable.
You are aware that the difference is only partially grounded in what you call "toxic masculinity", aren't you?
I'm pretty sure feminists are in favour of increasing the health and life quality of all people.
You seem like a very angry person. You should probably stop calling people 'tards' and 'pussies' while you advocate for for mental health and against sexism but I would first work on that near homicidal rage you seem to be harboring.
Modern problems require modern solutions. Identify as female.
I’m a bit concerned about using the “gender gap” term. As in, I wonder if it’s going to get adopted by misogynists to pit women’s suffering (gender pay gap) against men’s suffering (gender lifespan gap).
It is certainly telling that your first reaction isn't about the real subject of the study.
Even comparing the two issues that you brought up is ridiculous to me. Issue 1, women make slightly less in some situations for some jobs. Issue 2, men die earlier than women. These two issues are not even in the same realm of seriousness and urgency to solve.
I’d stop worrying about misogyny and start with some reflection on your own misandrist values.
Fucking hell, this pisses me off.
There is one constant with assholes: Any term or phrase can be used against someone else. It really doesn't matter what. When someone has an agenda to degrade another group of people, anything can be used as a weapon. The specifics have no meaning.
As far as your concern about this being used against someone else, sure. The most likely scenario is that this is picked up by some kind of partisan taking head and rebroadcast on a grander scale.
They’ll do that either way.
That’s sad. Sigh.
if feminism has taught us nothing else (and it hasn't) the only way to bridge this gap is to bring women down to our level not raise men up.