Nothing to see here
Nothing to see here
289 comments
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Wanna get even angrier? Since the cease fire was agreed, Israel released 150 Palestinian people. In that time, they have also made 133 new arrests of Palestinians for the crime of…celebrating the release of Palestinians.
If this were done by a movie villain, people would criticize it for being too cartoonishly evil and unrealistic.
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Imma need a hardcore source for this. Not because I doubt it, but because I'd like to include it in an essay
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Aljazeera is the first thing to pop up. You can likely use it as a jumping off point.
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Watch carefully when you hear and see coverage about this. The people Israel had were "prisoners" while the people hamas had were "hostages."
This kind of subtle reframing of words happens all the time.
CBS Nightly News had a story that talked about the 150% increase (don't quote me on the actual percentage) in antisemitism acts, but anti Muslim sentiments were just "on the rise."
It's a double standard depending on who they're talking about.
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The one that I saw was early on, after Hamas attacked, the news reported the number of deaths from “the Hamas invasion”. After that, when Israel retaliated and started killing Palestinians, the news was reporting “the total number killed since the beginning of the Hamas invasion”. They lumped all of the deaths from both sides together and framed it as if they were all attributed to Hamas, even though Israel had killed several times as many people by that point.
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It's a double standard depending on who they're talking about.
Always has been, always.
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Also note that holding hostages is an international war crime, while keeping prisoners is not. I've regularly noticed this language choice on NPR (a public radio station in the US).
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Doesn’t being a prisoner imply they committed some sort of crime and that’s why they are being held whereas a hostage is someone who was living life minding their own business and are now being held. Another lemming pointed out that many of the Palestinian prisoner were being held without charge but not necessarily that they did nothing wrong - sounds like it could be abused but doesn’t automatically mean it is (probably at times though).
As for the “double standard” from news reporting you’ve made big assumptions. News outlets use words to sensationalise and bend truths all the time but this works both ways. Without know the number for anti Muslim sentiment you can’t know. If anti Muslim sentiment had risen by 12% it wouldn’t be a big conspiracy to suggest that it was “on the rise” whereas a number like 150% is worth reporting especially in comparison to antimuslim if sentiment was only 12%.
I’m not saying a double standard doesn’t exist I’m just saying you might have confirmation bias in these examples.
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Many of the "prisoners" haven't been charged with a crime, which disputes their prisoner status.
Most of the "hostages" are foreign settlers in disputed territory, which at a minimum disputes their civilian status.
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Ohh yeah. Media lives to throw details into the bin in order to drive a narrative. I think it would take a soldier familiar with the rules on prisoners of war digging for information to realize that Hamas really tried to abide by those rules for their "hostages". It is however still a very decentralized organization and they can't enforce such things as well as a professional military.
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Yup, all these statements are accurate truths, that's why those words are being used. Israel is releasing prisoners while Hamas is returning hostages.
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Oh so now you're starting to catch on to mainstream media's blatant twisting of bullshit to fit their narrative?
Please don't tell me it's just because you're finally seeing something you disagree with in the news...
They've been doing this to conservatives for years. But just now you see it ...
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Pretty sure conservatives have been doing it to themselves by being bat shit insane recently and considering fox news is most conservatives holy Grail and is the most deceptive, lying piece of propaganda out there, its a bit funny to hear you say conservative voices are being shut down or twisted
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Sorry but Jewish Space Lasers are only for really awesome parties. There's no interface for election machines.
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I hate how people treat genocide and other crimes against humanity as a reason to take teams and treat it like "you're either with team a or team b".
Any comment here criticizing one thing is taken as approval of "the other team" and I personally find that horrendous.
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In America, we citizens haven't had any significant question where we were presented with more than 2 options as long as i can remember.
Manufactured consent.
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Protesting and organizing movement outside the system is the only way the ruling class can be made to do something.
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What a load of bs.
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Exactly. Folks just prefer extremes, As if they enjoy to keep conflic going.
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YES! It’s so frustrating! I've never seen any other Topic like that.
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Politics? Sports? Religion? Tribalism is pretty much everywhere, probably part of our ancestral hard wiring and DNA.
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Are you being sarcastic?
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You're intentionally obfuscating the reality. No one is actively taking sides with Hamas. People are simply voicing support for all of the children murdered by the IDF, which pales in comparison to any of the violence that Hamas has inflicted on Israel.
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No I agree with them. Demanding a public release of actual evidence to justify bombing hospitals has gotten me called a terrorist more times than I care to count.
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I bet you feel enlightened with your centrist take.
I don't know if you realise but people can acknowledge that Hamas did bad things to civilians as well as Israel. The difference is some people can also acknowledge that the only reason Hamas exists is because Israel is a settler colonial state. Without Israel's crimes against humanity, there would be no need for Hamas to exist. People also have the ability to recognise the western media's attempt to falsely equivocate "both sides" when one is a genocidal attempt at an ethnostate backed by the most powerful nation the world has ever seen (and friends) and the other is a reaction to this.
“For forty years you try to strangle us. And then you criticize us for the way we breathe” ~ Fidel Castro.
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Enlightened? Because I said I hate that people are using genocide as an excuse to take one of two sides? The situation isn't even encompassed in two sides, the country, the government and the people (and in the case of Palestine, also Hamas) are being treated as one monolithic beings with one agreeing mind each when they are not.
I'm sorry if your "if you're not with me, you're against me, here's a quote from a historical figure" routine didn't pressure me into trivializing crimes against humanity.
Edit: I'd like to point out how I've been called centrist for acknowledging there aren't two sides and this isn't a sport event deserving of fans.
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You're framing Hamas as being merely a reaction to Israel's aggression, when they actively work, sometimes in collaboration with Netanyahu1, to maintain the status quo and insure they're own relevance and power. You're right that Hamas wouldn't have a purpose without the occupation, and Hamas knows it.
Hamas isn't a path to Palestinian freedom, they're an obstacle to it. Hamas are motherfuckers; don't defend them.
If we say Israel is responsible for the destruction wrought on her own people in reaction to her crimes, then we must hold Hamas to that standard too. But following logic like this makes everybody and nobody responsible and implies that Israel controls the terrorists and Hamas runs the IDF. It's also precisely the Justification Netanyahu uses for the bombing.
At the end of the day, Israel is the party with the power to stop this cycle, and that is where I think we should put our attention.
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There's literally no disagreement between you two. You're saying the same as them, but adding a historical context of how we got here. That really doesn't change condemnation of both nor finding the team sports here disgusting.
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They rounded up another 150 as they released those 150.
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They actually have about 7,000 people in "administrative detention" which means people held without charges.
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And remember boys and girls, this is not "hostage taking" because - as the simpleton useful idiots never cease to repeat - "it's legal".
(Thinking people might start pondering on which laws in their own supposedly Democratic countries are moral and which are nothing more than the hypocritical abuse of "justice" to cover up abuses of power)
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Of course we'll hear the "ThEyRe NoT cItIzEnS sO iTs NoT aPaRtHeId" argument
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It's pretty easy. They basically keep them in cages.
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People who say they violated the laws here, don't understand what is mean to be apartheid state.
These state have laws and regulations that basically push groups of people until they leave the country or extents.
I would recommend reading more because any ruling party in your country can easily create laws to discriminate against a group of people that could be you.
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Yup. I'll put this here for those that need the explanation:
- Morals
- Ethics
- Laws
These often overlap but are fundamentally different things.
For instance, a country can be morally bankrupt, value a strong code of ethics, and have laws that have nothing to do with either.
Also, you often need to compare entire cultures before you can see problems with equivocating any of the three.
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Yeah the stories, even from IDF veterans, are hair raising. Stuff like rousting Palestinian families every night. And any hint of aggression in response is heavily punished. There is no justice in this system.
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Saw one yesterday that they threw tear gas into their hostages cells. The irony of Zionists gassing people...
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Ah yes, stabbing people is not a crime in non-apartheid states
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I love how you linked to an anti-Palestinian subreddit that ran out of “unprovoked” stabbings for their little propaganda clip, so they just included two examples of Palestinians being hassled by Israelis for good measure (security guard and police respectively).
Meanwhile, the Israeli government themselves published a list of 300 people eligible for hostage exchange on which 80% were listed without charge or conviction.
And that’s not even touching upon the whole “administrative detention” nonsense, nor the physical, mental and sexual abuse of children in between torture.
So either you’re purposefully ignorant in pretending that all of the hostages are violent offenders, or you’re in favor of collective punishment.
The latter would be a rather untenable position, because that logic would mean you condone the hostage taking of Israeli civilians for the acts of their government (more so when you consider the conscription laws in Israel).
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Roughly 80% of those on the list were not convicted of any crimes. They were either charged with crimes that had not yet been prosecuted, or were detained under a practice known as administrative detention, whereby Israel holds Palestinians in the occupied territories with no formal charges or evidence presented against them.
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Come on buddy, Hams aren't real terrorists! Their knives are in caramelised sugar and their bullets are marshmallows
Evil apartheid-istic Israel on the other hand..
/s
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Israel became worse than Hamas. I'm not saying Hamas are the good guys, both sides have killed civilians.
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It's a settler colonial ethnostate lol. It's always been fundamentally fascist from the beginning.
And getting Jews out of Europe is doing exactly what the Nazis wanted.
The Imperialist countries, specially the US, have learnt nothing from history. They're literally funding a fascist genocide.
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Israel became worse than Hamas.
Have been since 1949. You know... long before Hamas even existed?
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became
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You see, that's because Israel didn't kill the women and children...
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I guess not all of them... Kudos?
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u guys are by far the most racist uninformed bunch on lemmy, for a moment I thought I'm in qanon meeting. oh I'm in political memes? that explains it
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Maybe you shouldn't train your kids to stab people and they won't end up in jail.
My Mom taught me that one. Never forgot it either.
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My mom taught me to not kick millions of people out of their homes, start and apartheid state, arrest any dissenters, commit numerous war crimes, and then drop over 6,000 bombs on millions of innocent people in two months time. Not sure why she taught me that.
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You're aware that a greater number of Jews were dispelled from their homes than Arabs in the 40s, Right? You want the right to return, then give those people back their homes too.
You're aware that Arab Israelis sit in political office, serve in the IDF right? Hardly sn apartheid situation there. How many Arabs have given up their citizenship? Seems like if they weren't being treated properly, you'd hear about it wouldn't you? I'm seeing plenty of support for Israel including Arabs willingly rejoining their idf units.
You're aware that Palestinians have fired more rockets into Israel since 10/7 than the other way around right?
Your Mom probably needs to get off tik tok and go learn some facts.
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Teach your kids to roll over and fellate colonial invaders, got it
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Oh, good, sexism with my morning lemmy.
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Have a downvote for being an idiot.
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So teenagers slingshoting stones at poliecmen heads or throwing 10 pound cinder blocks at cars windshield get slaps on the wrist in your countries?
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Of course one can ask if you need to jail teenagers for throwing rocks at police and military. But asking 'how' is pretty simple: you can look it up. There are laws and if you violate them, you get jailed.
On the other side: maybe ask Hamas where their victims came from. What did the 23 Thai workers did wrong. Or the 10 Nepaelis.
...or even more depressing: ask them where they are. Rumors go around that Hamas doesn't know anymore where all hostages are. Since Hamas fighters where allowed to take individual hostages as trophy back home. You can only imagine what they might do to a single, young and beautiful woman whose only crime was to be at the wrong time at the wrong spot.
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Israel took more than a thousand detainees without any charges. A lot of them are women and children and they don't even necessarily come from Gaza.
And you should maybe think a bit less with aesthetics, why wouldn't the less beautiful women and girls be raped? It seems to me that you unjustly discriminate on who deserves the most pity.
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There are laws and if you violate them, you get jailed.
hey, slavery is legal so obey the fucking law and don't fight for your freedom. after all, you wouldn't want to be labeled a criminal by slavers, now would you?
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Ones a terrorist organisation and the other is meant to be a national state you fucking idiot.
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Fun fact, in 2006 we had a chance to welcome them into legitimate governance and work towards peace with them.
Instead we, the western world, rebuffed every attempt they made at being a legitimate government and backed Israel's blockade and assassination campaign.
Second fun fact, you can't bomb an ideology. You can only convince people it's not right, outdated, or no longer useful. In terrorism this is often done through allowing them to operate as a legitimate political party. It's a lot harder for them to justify martydom to their rank and file if they have a seat in parliament.
They may be terrorists but we turned them away.
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That suggests that those jailed have been convicted or even sentenced for crimes. Look up administrative detention.
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These are not part of the deal.
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So about those laws.
Also wondering which Israeli laws allow for the physical, mental and sexual abuse of children. Perhaps it might be good to change those if they exist.
And since we’re on the topic of laws. Perhaps we should look into Article 2 of the CPPCG, and, if Israel insists these people are prisoners of war, which seems to be the case with the venue of choice being a military court, Article 13 of the Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War.
Surely the “only democracy in the Middle East” will adhere to most supreme of all laws?
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The Thai workers were released in the first wave. Don't conflate that with other stuff.
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You must be on the ground in Israel! Wow. What's the situation where you are?
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... Huh? What am I missing where prisoner exchanges aren't common in combat zones?
Why wouldn't they be evacuating women and children out of them? Especially in contested areas.
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Israel is trying to sell the story that they are victims to Palestinian aggression. The prisoner trade undermines that story because this shows that Israel has a lot of prisoners who are not warfighters. This begs the questions: why is Israel arresting so many civilians, and how are they able to pull that off? The answer is that Israel is the vastly dominant force in this conflict.
Palestinians aren't evacuating because they have no where to go. Egypt has closed its borders to them, and Israel surrounds them otherwise. Israel has also made evacuations very difficult. There have been reports of Israel giving mere hours notice to evacuate and then attacking early anyway.
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Palestinians not evacuating because if they do they will never be allowed back. People who evacuated in prior years, went to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, Qatar and many other countries, to avoid the war, are not allowed to go back. Isreal claimed their homes as "they left it empty" among other "legal" laws. Now they don't get the citizenship, they can't go back, and if they do they will find a settlers from New York living there.
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Two of those who were formerly detainees, shot and killed someone in Jerusalem yesterday....seems like it might have been a good idea to have them locked up. Brothers as it's reported.
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... Right, they're not war fighters.
They're presumably in combat zones though. You can't just leave women and children there right? They would evacuate them. They then find out they're Palestinian so they hold them for prisoner exchanges. Am I just missing something about needing to protect them or are you wanting Israel to just leave them be in an active combat zone where they could be attacked or struck with gunfire?
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So are terrorists supposed to be only of adult male?
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ah yes, the 7200 terrorists, including hundreds of child terrorists. the two and a half 9/11 deaths worth of terrorists
i'm sure most of those are legitimate imprisonments that aren't at all human rights violations, despite many of those people all not having any charges associated with their arrests. i'm sure the vastly unequal treatment of palestinians vs israelis that includes an indefinite time in captivity facing physical abuse and strip searches along with things like public and private gatherings of 10 or more people being illegal for specifically palestinians isn't anything to worry about
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Since taking hostages is a war crime, the whole “prisoners” thing is an extremely thin veil to circumvent those laws.
Extremely thin, because they use administrative detention and military courts with “secret” evidence for the few that are lucky to see a court in the first place.
Not to mention the litany of human rights violations that occurs in the prisons themselves.
Even POWs are to be treated better than the
administrative detaineeshostages according to the Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War. -
Considering that this is a population capable of butchering the equivalent of 32x 9/11 deaths (adjusting for Israeli population), and that you're dealing with a terrorist organization known for dexapiating babies and sending it's own children with bombs strapped to their bodies, it might be a good idea to make sure your detainees don't have anything under their clothes...
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So you're saying that israel doesn't have any right to protect their own people? I think you forgot to read the fact that these "childrens" must've done something to be put into prison or detention, either because they did some crime against israeli or by illegally staying in israel. Do you think they're too stupid to purposely want to be hated by the whole world by jailing innocent childrens??
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are we suppose to take the label "terrorist" serious when it comes to the israelis? just because israel labels someone a terrorist it doesn't make it true.
but i know your thought process. it is based on the false premisse that israel is not a terrorist state.
if israel arrests you on the charges of terrorism it doesn't make you a terrorist. it makes you an enemy to a "terrorist state". you can use terror and be a terrorist when fighting israel, but just because you get arrested by idf, it doesn't automatically makes you a terrorist, imho.
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That you get down voted for this simple fact is really saying a lot about the Kool-aid consumption of some "Israel critics".
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Lemmy is full of basement dwelling, terrorist loving, jew hating tankies that consider this issue pure black and white with Israel as total evil oppressing "poor" Palestinians since eternity.
The good news is that there's only 2 thousand or so of them here posting, commenting and agreeing with each other in their echo chamber, while downvoting all disagreeing opinions.
The bad news is it's making me consider going back to Reddit again... even though I fucking hate Reddit since that API debacle.
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They're afraid of a simple question.
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289 comments