1y ago

Kinzinger says Christians who back Trump ‘don’t understand’ their religion

thehill.com Kinzinger says Christians who back Trump ‘don’t understand’ their religion

Former Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) bashed former President Trump online and said Christians who support him “don’t understand” their religion. “I’m going to go out on a NOT limb here: this man is …

Former Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) bashed former President Trump online and said Christians who support him “don’t understand” their religion.

“I’m going to go out on a NOT limb here: this man is not a Christian,” Kinzinger said on X, formerly known as Twitter, responding to Trump’s Christmas post. “If you are a Christian who supports him you don’t understand your own religion.”

Kinzinger, one of Trump’s fiercest critics in the GOP, said in his post that “Trump is weak, meager, smelly, victim-ey, belly-achey, but he ain’t a Christian and he’s not ‘God’s man.’”

149 comments

"If those kids could read they would be very upset"

I kind of want to tell him that republicans who don't support trump don't understand their party.
- ...don't understand the demographics of their party.
  It's all about advertising to the racists and to the putin-bots. Trump only is a smelly and horrible means to a very ugly end.
  
  Even before that, it was about protecting the "good" people from the "bad" people. It just has gotten to the point where you no longer get cancelled for racism.
  
  Fascism doesn’t care about how you smell. At least at first.
- He wants to be in the Party That Cuts Taxes And Bombs Brown People, but not... you know... the Party That Tweets Rudely.
  
  Or, you know, not the party that is openly authoritarian and anti-democracy. We don't have to like Kinzinger's politics, but let's not be fucking morons and misrepresent the reasons why he's turned against his own party. That's good for no one.

Jesus would not recognize modern Christians by almost any measure.
- If Jesus returned today, American evangelicals role would be first in line to crucify him a second time
  
  Not if he came back with a loaded 45 in his rear jeans pocket, mumble rapping with face tatts.
- Imagine if you had a time machine and could pick him up and show him St. Peters basilica today.
  The shit fit he would throw would make the cleansing of the temple look like nothing.
  
  (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
- If he existed as described, which is doubtful at least.
- I always wonder what the point of the rapture is if it hasn't already happened. Ain't no one going up. Modern Christians can't even be objective enough to understand their own failure to follow their own subjective morals.
  
  I regularly jest that the rapture happened in 2012 but nobody noticed because only one guy in Montana was raptured and the rest of us just blithely continued on living. I imagine that Revelations is playing out and God and the Antichrist are both standing around scratching their heads as the horsemen are trying to do their thing and modern Christians look at it all and say "hold my beer".

Maybe ask yourself why your people are so stupid in the first place, Adam.
- He's just pissy he wasn't chosen as god emperor of the smoothies.
  
  This guy was on the January 6th committee. He appears to be genuine in his disgust of trump, and I doubt he is envious of him.
  That being said, he still holds all of the core conservative views that keep us poor and sick.

Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
- They have an excuse for that. It's really fucking stupid.
  There are two popular interpretations for the phrase “eye of a needle.” The first theory is that it is a reference to the tiny hole at the top of a sewing needle. Simple enough. The second theory is that it is a reference to a gate with the name “the eye of the needle” that was in first century Jerusalem. The gate was so small that anyone that hoped to get a camel through would have to take all of their baggage off the camel, get it down to its knees, and kind of shimmy the camel through the tiny opening.
  You can see why this is important for Bible readers. Either Jesus is saying that it is impossible for a rich man to get into Heaven, or he’s saying that it’s really challenging for a rich man to get into heaven.
  https://classictheology.org/2021/10/12/through-the-eye-of-an-actual-needle-the-fake-gate-theory/
  Of course, there is zero evidence for such a gate ever existing. Rich Christians just want to excuse their wealth.
  
  Even with that questionable excuse it would mean you have to give up all of your possessions and humbly come to god on your knees. They really just want to ignore their own book.
  
  It's also stupid because it ignores the part right before the camel metaphor
  16Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
  17“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
  18“Which ones?” he inquired.
  Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ d ”
  20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
  21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
  22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
  23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
  It just says sell your possessions and give to the poor.
  Most Christians don't really know the Bible very well. They think Paradise Lost or Dante's Inferno are canon. They do all sorts of mental backflips to justify what they want to do anyway.
  
  Good post, thank you for sharing!
  
  Let me preface this by clarifying that I don't claim to have the one and only right explanation that everyone should accept, I'd just like to point out that this theory also exists: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/43799
  
  Not to mention there was a similar expression in use at the time in the east using an elephant. The verse is pretty unambiguous.
- *enter into prison
  FTFY

He’s not wrong, but this is honestly the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy.
The bible does technically say you should treat your fellows as you would want to be treated and promotes brotherhood, but it also says women and other races are inferior and advocates for truly heinous behaviour. Cherry picking has always been the point, and shitloads of crimes against humanity have been officially sanctioned by the church.
There’s a very good reason the founders these people claim to venerate wanted the church and state to be separate. They were deists, but not overt Christians, and they’d seen what happens when religion mingles with government: horrible, horrible things.
- I don't think so. He's not saying they aren't "true" Christians, an undefinable standard of "true. He's saying they don't understand it. Christ flipped the tables and whipped the money changers, these people worship a real estate speculator. Christ's message is one of social welfare and commonwealth, conservative populists literally killed Jesus for blasphemy.
  Like, he's right, they don't understand it. I went to Christian Sunday school. There wasn't one lesson about taking health insurance from poor people and charging interest on school lunch debt.
  
  I’m not sure what distinction you’re trying to make. He’s saying these Christians don’t understand their religion, as in they’re not following what he thinks Christianity is supposed to be. That’s the very definition of the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy.
  You’re doing it too, honestly. What you learned in Sunday school doesn’t match how these republicans are interpreting it, so they’re not following the real teachings.
  I’m saying you can look through the history of the official stances of the Christian church and find many, many examples of sanctioned atrocities. You may not like it, but Christianity has never been what’s printed on the tin.
  
  Jesus wasn't socialist, he literally said to leave to Caesar that which is Caesar's. He wanted to part of government, and instead pointed people to the government of heaven.
  His message was for individuals to choose to help the poor on their own, not to use the government to force everyone to help the poor. The message was always about the individual, not the group, and it wasn't until the Acts that we start to talk about the "church" and any kind of centralization. He said, "follow me," not "organize yourselves into communes."
  So no, I absolutely do not think Jesus was a socialist, he was the polar opposite of Trump. He shared a message of tolerance, love, and personal improvement, whereas Trump shares a message of intolerance, hate, and blaming others for your problems.

They're reactionary nationalists; I think they understand their religion just fine.
That's kind of the whole problem with basing one's worldview on magical thinking though: when you have to interpret moral instructions, its only as good as the lens you use. In this case, their religion is filtered through fear, bigotry, and power politics.
I have much more respect for Christians who use humanism as their lens, but they're also picking and choosing what they want to from the Bible Buffet.
- Realistically, there's no shortage of Christians who are just in it for the abuse. They like the way bigotry feels and the church gives them plenty of targets.

Supply Side Jesus
- For those not in the know, Al Franken [D-MN] is a former comedian and senator who resigned from Congress and who created this epic comic critique of the state of modern Christianity in 2003 as part of Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them – A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right.
  The comic is called The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus, and it’s worth reading through.
  e: link and formatting

There's a question here of scripture vs religion. I think very clearly people who follow Trump do not understand the Christian scripture/Bible.
But scripture isn't what religion is. Religion is the faith system that develops around that scripture, even if it's contradictory at times. In that sense, evangelicals understand their religion perfectly well.
- Yeah. Folks don't understand theology and exegesis in religion. The critics of religion are guilty of the same problem the evangelical right: biblical literalism. Literalism is a modern method of interpretation where texts historically read as "mythos" arr now read as "logos".
  
  Yeah it always annoys me how some outspoken atheists often treat the Bible and other religious texts in the exact same manner the stupidest religious people do (maybe harsh way to say that). When I was still a Christian I was basically immune to atheist critiques of the Bible simply because I didn't recognize the Bible in the literal way they attacked it, and the Christian arguments against Biblical literalism I found to be way stronger than atheist ones that dismissed so much information to function.
- I can pick and choose verses as well.
  
  I'm not picking verses though, I'm talking about the overall theme of the gospels.
  The narrative consistently has Jesus praising the poor and shunned while condemning the religious and rich. He tells people to lay off a prostitute, interacts face to face with lepers, and talks about how a friendly foreigner is better than indifferent countrymen. And he constantly calls out the hypocritical religious people.
  I'm not Christian, but I think Jesus' actions and teachings are worth following in these regards. Helping the poor, telling religious zealots to fuck off, and providing food for everyone. A political party that actually embodies what Jesus does would effectively be a communist + socialist group.
  I highly recommend reading through the gospels as literature, if only to throw it back at evangelicals in their face. Remind them how Jesus promised damnation to those who don't help the poor, when they start going on about entitlement programs and policies that hurt the poor.
  
  Whoosh!
- I prefer the Marxian view of religion that people's religious beliefs are not the source of their actions but instead that the religion is determined by conditions and motivations external to it and that religion is used to morally justify these conditions, as well as provide a means to address the suffering caused by conditions. We see religion evolve as people's relationships with production evolve as well as power struggles and compromises between state powers. People often view Christianity as wiping out paganism rather than adopting aspects of it that would solidify state power for example. And people often treat religion as it's own domain separate from culture, but I think that doesn't explain things like civil religion or how religion actually functions. The way Calvinism during the 1600s develop alongside capitalism and these new economic relations it's hard not to see religion in this way, and in the US you saw things like the Adventists and Mormons come out of Christian tradition which is basically a historical record of this process.
  I think an error is the idea that atheists aren't necessarily religious in an ideological sense, because a lot of them follow notions of civil religion and morality that are very much attached to theistic religions, or at least rely on the existence of concepts found in theistic religion. The idea that atheists and Christians are separate ideologically I think is false, in many cases they merely take the same moral framework and apply it for different political ends within the same broad economic consensus. And this makes a lot of sense as the recent Atheist movement in the 00s was very politically attached to the post 9/11 stuff that was happening. That movement split in the 10s along culture war lines as well, I personally saw many atheists turn into "race realists" and anti-feminists and the skeptics group I was attending basically ceased to exist because of this.

He's got an unrealistically high opinion of Christianity.
- I've got a high opinion of Christianity and Christians. I have an incredibly low opinion of "Christianity" and "Christians".
  
  I've also heard that no true "Scotsman"....
  Edit: no, it's ok guys, I put it in quotes.
- I was going to say... Has this rhetorical move ever convinced anyone of anything? I see Republicans pull it all the time on minority groups. "Uh, actually, all you black democrat voters are on a plantation and its not in your best interests to vote consistently for a single party." And then, when it comes time for the GOP to put up or shut up, the best candidates they can produce are Herman Cain and Tim Scott.
  Meanwhile, you've got a bunch of Cafeteria Catholics from Rhode Island tut-tutting the Evangelicals down in Texas who have convinced themselves that the End of Days is right around the corner, because Donald Trump has fucked more children than your average priest. Nah, dude. That won't work any better than your boy Beto saying he's going to take everyone's guns. They're not listening to you any more than you're listening to Ben Shapiro call our California for hosting too many gay teen abortion parades.
  The folks who pop off with these "By your own logic..." retorts are inevitably just preaching to their own choirs. That's before they get back to the import Congressional business of gutting public education and exporting another billion dollars of cluster bombs into the Middle East.
  
  No. It hasn't, and it never will.
  You can't shake a belief. You can change an idea, you can rationalize with opinions. But once it's a belief, nothing short of a world shattering hardship or literally putting them through the same treatment that you give to cult members is going to break them out of it.
  These people have built a belief system that puts them at the top, no matter what branch of Christianity you're looking at, you're looking at the most righteous, the most correct, the most justified in their actions. If someone says to them "hey you've got it wrong" then clearly the only rational explanation is that no, you actually.
  This isn't unique to Christianity, not by a long shot. Most religious systems do this. But Christianity is the unique problem we have.

For a Republican, this is quite a smart analysis.

If you can believe some old book full of fairy tales is true, then you can believe literally anything.
- I know, right??!
- le tips le fedora

In their defense, neither do Christians that don't back Trump.
- You should talk to some ELCA Lutheran's or Unitarian Universalists. Not all Christians are bad.
  
  Not all of them are bad, but all of them agree blatant sexism, racism, slavery and genocide aren't deal-breakers.
  "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." ~Steven Weinberg
  
  I've spent plenty of time with Lutherans and Quakers and the lot. What overall percentages of Christendom do you think these sects compose?
  
  Hollow succor when the bad ones do bad in your own name, without meaningful distinction. Christianity very clearly has no mechanism to prevent bad actors, and its god doesn't seem to care to prevent them, either.
  "A few bad apples spoil the whole cart."
  Edit: typo.
- I'd be willing to bet the amount of people - believers or not - who have devoted significant study to the Bible understanding its context, translation difficulties, relevance to the epoch at the time it was written (and the time it was "set"), and it's journey between Judaism and modern Christianity, how it has changed over the various schisms and decrees AND has a solid grip on the ecumenical questions, conventions, devices, rituals... (e.g. "What colors should a priest wear on January 6th and why?") are few and far between.
  It's a massive text with a huge amount packed into every line. Atheist or no, anyone claiming to understand the Bible without doctorate level study is lying.

Their religion is hate and harm.
That is distinctly different from their scripture, which is the exact opposite of those things. They call themselves “Christian” while spitting in the face of the teachings of the man their “religion” is named after.
- I was with you at first, but scriptures have plenty of problematic stuff as well.
  Yes Christians today are more selfish and cold hearted than the Bible would have them to be.
  On the other hand, Christians are also less murderous and misogynistic than their scriptures dictate. And that's not a compliment to Christians.
  The Bible just kinda hits different when you're a woman in 300 CE.
- I mean, have you read the Bible? There's a whole lot of hate and harm in it.

He is right but it is has been this way before.
- Before? It's always been this way, my friend, and it's never stopped. See the Gnostics, the Ascetics, the Zoroastrians, the Unitarian Universalists, the Mormons, etc. There's no shortage of people who follow the True Religion™.

Kinzinger doesn't understand their religion

At this point that has got to be the ONLY quiet part Republicans don't say out loud.

Most of them don't understand the Constitution, either, so.... because of their total misunderstanding that this is a SECULAR nation, they'll subject everyone else to their stupid misunderstanding of their religion on everyone else, making a farce of both.

I'm tired of reading headlines that start with Former.. who gives AF. Please start with "Powerless Retiree Joe Schmo Has Said Some Irrelevant Shit That Makes No Difference"
Okay cool.. so dude on Internet has opinions. So I might as well be a former GOP congressman. Got it
- I had this exact sentiment when Obama talked about pressuring and dropping support for Israel lol.
  Dude would have done the exact same thing as Biden now if he were still president, but because he's retired, he can pretend to care.
- He said similar shit while he was still in office and it didn't go over well with the GOP. That contributed to him deciding not to run again.

This is the best summary I could come up with:
Former Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) bashed former President Trump online and said Christians who support him “don’t understand” their religion.
Kinzinger has become isolated from most of the Republican Party after serving on the House select committee that investigated the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol.
“Merry Christmas to all, including Crooked Joe Biden’s ONLY HOPE, Deranged Jack Smith, the out of control Lunatic who just hired outside attorneys, fresh from the SWAMP (unprecedented!
Trump has repeatedly gone after Smith, who is prosecuting him over his actions related to the 2020 election and the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.
“Included also are World Leaders, both good and bad, but none of which are as evil and ‘sick’ as the THUGS we have inside our Country who, with their Open Borders, INFLATION, Afghanistan Surrender, Green New Scam, High Taxes, No Energy Independence, Woke Military, Russia/Ukraine, Israel/Iran, All Electric Car Lunacy, and so much more, are looking to destroy our once great USA.
He has a 52.4 percent lead based on an aggregation of more than 300 polls, according to The Hill’s partner Decision Desk HQ.
The original article contains 381 words, the summary contains 186 words. Saved 51%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

Yeah those people are becoming all white nordic thor religions because Christ really has too much of a pussy vibe for their hate.
https://newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak
https://www.newsweek.com/evangelicals-rejecting-jesus-teachings-liberal-talking-points-pastor-1818706
https://www.ualberta.ca/folio/2020/07/white-supremacists-are-misappropriating-norse-mythology-says-expert.html

It's really sad how evangelicals have let themselves be trapped and manipulated by Trump and the Republican Party.

they understand their religion. their religion is hate, fear and violence. they don't understand christianity because they're not christians.

At this point, it's like telling a hard core junkie that heroin will eventually kill them. For the MAGoos, death is preferable to admitting that Donnie is an idiot and a traitor.

Only atheists really read the Bible

As a former christian I can confirm that the vast majority of christians in the multiple communities I grew up in have not read, reflected nor understood the teachings.
I read the bible in full, reflected on it, appreciated the views of morality and accepted that it was a work of fiction based on the actions of few people whose lives were greatly exaggerated for the purposes of controlling the people who refuse to read and reflect on the materials at hand.

Eh. That's a no true Scotsman fallacy. Also the christian religion has been authoritarian at least since it became the atate religion of the roman empire back ion the 4th century.

"Judgment is mine," saith The Lord.
Mr Kinzinger is also off the reservation.
- Did you just judge someone for your perception of them judging someone else?
  
  I AM THE LAW!

“If you are a Christian who supports him you don’t understand your own religion.”
Typical christian gatekeeping. Absolutely nobody is an actual christian, according to any christian. That's why they've fought each other for hundreds of years over the meaning of 'real christian'. Millions of people have been killed over this crap.
"You're not a real christian! My god says to never kill, and I'll kill you if you say otherwise!"
"No! You're not a real christian! My god says to kill anyone not following the true faith!"
fighting noises until someone is dead. - Which would be fine except innocent people are always drawn into these conflicts and killed.
- I rather think that Jesus himself would be the gatekeeper here. He's not a Christian because he follows, values, and embodies precisely none of the values Jesus laid out for his followers, nor any tenets of the actual religion. I know that, and I'm an atheist.
  By all means, prove me wrong by going through all the things about Trump that Jesus would approve of. We'll all be waiting.
  
  The problem is, and a big part of it (but not all of it) is due to Biblical contradictions and lack of clarity, no one follows everything Jesus says to do.
  The Skeptics's Annotated Bible has a huge list of contradictions separated into books.
  https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/first/contra2_list.html
  For example- Should the gospel be preached to everyone?
  Sometimes Jesus says yes, sometimes Jesus says not to gentiles or Samaritans, meaning basically the only people the gospel should be preached to is other Jews.
  https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/samaritans.html
  How do you follow the teachings of Jesus when they are that inconsistent?
- Not sure why this comment is downvoted (though I can probably guess).

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