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This is a bad thing
although the media attention and scope is quite skewed, and this is doubtless going to be used as propaganda for ukraine to kill russian civs.
But this is an attack that has killed citizens, further burning a land once united and deepening the divide between them. This war is both the final revenge of the Soviet Union, and the final nail of its coffin.
Interestingly enough look on lemmy world news, libs there were like "Russia genocides Ukrainians by the millions" for two years, and now they are "30 killed in biggest attack in the war".
Lemmy.world is the worst parts of reddit lol
That was by the way posted by the most veteran of lemmy libs pingveno, who then proceed to show that his reading comprehension somhow went even worse since the reddit invasion, and who also straight up posted this gem
and promptly got 3 day ban for tokenizing Jews (no nazis under Jewish president etc.) in other post.One of our admins, I think it was comrade Criticalresist, called Lemmy.world "reddit 2.0" in their post where they announced that Lemmy.world had defederated from us
I'd point out Ukraine already kills Russian civilians. Already conducts terrorist attacks and feels fully justified in doing so because they are blood-thirsty, monstrous fascists being pushed to do something for the even stronger fascists their US masters. You have liberals in the US calling all Russians orcs, celebrating Russian tourists being killed in shark attacks. Ukraine is already fully unhinged, fully committed to terror tactics and will grow so even more so as their conventional forces fail and evaporate as the US demands punishment on Russian bodies and they don't give a fuck if those bodies are civilians or not. The propaganda for dehumanizing Russians has already reached its zenith, it can't go higher. They've staged false flag massacres, claimed all kinds of atrocities committed by Russians in areas they briefly occupied, and the western imagination does the rest.
More propaganda is not needed. If civilians were not incidentally killed, they would stage fake massacres as in 'Bucha' (sp?) or wherever that was. It's in other words irrelevant to propaganda.
thats what i said
doesn't mean im going to cheer when it hits noncombatants in ukraine. This doesn't mean I support the Nazi supporting Ukraine state, but I cannot look at this and think its a good or right thing. A fault of their own actions, maybe.
this whole thing is a mess
Also we should be careful and not quick to accept western bourgeois propaganda press and their version of events. Let us not forget how dishonest they are and this is their dishonesty plus the plausible deniability of just repeating whatever the Kiev regime says, so if later it comes out that it isn't true, they're off the hook completely.
Here is RT on the incident, no less credible:
https://www.rt.com/russia/589951-ukraine-kill-civilians-un/
Ukrainian air defenses kill civilians – Moscow
*Rather than intercepting Russian missiles, Kiev’s Western-provided systems hit apartment blocks, Russia’s envoy to the UN said *
Ukrainian air defense missiles were responsible for civilian casualties during Russia’s recent bombardment of Ukrainian military sites, Russia’s permanent representative to the UN, Vassily Nebenzia, claimed on Friday. Were it not for the “Nazi regime’s” malfunctioning missiles, there would have been no civilian deaths, Nebenzia added.
Russia unleashed a wave of missile and drone strikes across Ukraine in the early hours of Friday morning. According to the Russian Defense Ministry, the “massive” barrage targeted defense industry sites, military airfields, arms depots, and troop positions, including concentrations of foreign mercenaries.
Ukraine claimed that 30 civilians were killed and 160 wounded in the attacks, and Kiev called for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council in response. During the meeting, Britain’s permanent representative to the UN, Barbara Woodward, accused Russia of targeting civilians and stated that there would have been fewer casualties if Ukraine had more air defense systems.
“It is hard to imagine greater cynicism,” Nebenzia responded. “But for the work of Ukrainian air defenses, there would have been simply no civilian casualties.”
Nebenzia showed the Security Council video footage of a burning missile falling onto an apartment block in Kiev. “An impact missile does not fly at such a speed and along such a trajectory,” he explained. “Obviously, this is the consequence of the work of Ukrainian air defense.”
Another photo shared by Nebenzia showed a residential building in Lviv peppered with small craters, caused by the submunitions that air defense missiles – when working properly – expel in order to detonate incoming missiles mid-flight.
“The Nazi regime is ready to kill not only the inhabitants of Donbas with Western weapons and the same air defense missiles, but also kill its own citizens in their homes,” he declared.
Ukraine’s air defense batteries – a mix of Soviet-era and Western-provided systems – have malfunctioned in this manner on countless occasions during the conflict, most notably when a Ukrainian missile veered off course into eastern Poland last November and killed two farmers.
Ukraine responded to Friday’s barrage by firing banned cluster munitions at civilian targets in the Russian city of Belgorod on Saturday, killing at least 18 people, including two children. Russia has called an emergency meeting of the security council, and has insisted that the Czech representative attend, as Czech rockets were allegedly used to deliver the deadly munitions.
The Russian Ministry of Defense said on Saturday that the “criminal” attack on Belgorod “will not go unpunished.”
Interestingly enough I remember earlier in the conflict someone did an analysis that showed a Ukrainian apartment block they claimed Russia hit could only have been hit by Ukrainian air defenses so this would not be the first time. We must also remember the Polish provocation where two Poles in Poland died after a munition landed, Ukraine immediately blamed Russia and hopped up and down for Article 5 and Poland responding but it turned out it was one of their own anti-air missiles and it was swept under the rug there-after.
And note what Poland did after that incident - shit got too real, so instead of uncritically repeating UA and US propaganda like usual, they called highest tier meeting with president and after few hours announced that they don't believe it was Russian attack.
Do you have any sources pointing to the staged massacre in Bucha?
they didn't need propaganda to shell people in donbass for 8 years
Neither side intentionally targets civilians.
War is hell. But Russia, as the aggressor in this war, is the one in the wrong here.
Nah Ukraine started it back in 2014 with the coup and the subsequent oppression of Russian speaking population of the Donbass
This didn't start in 2022
Don't forget the blatent violation of both minsk accords and their statement the negotiations where in bad faith
Oppressed how?
Across all sides (Civilian, Military, Ukranian and Russian), an estimated 150-200K people have died and half a million wounded since the start of the invasion in 2022.
What kind of oppression could possibly been having taken place that necessitates such an escalation?
They where none stop shelling donbass, and took away the rights of the Russian speaking population many times, they also flagrantly violated both minsk accords.
Also you are convenently forgetting that Russia has REPEATEDLY offered peace treaties, negotiations for peace treaties and cease fires so they can negotiate a peace treaty starting from week 1, that Ukraine (Became the US told them to) Refuses every time.
They where none stop shelling Donbass
Yes, it so happens a civil war was being fought there.
But the majority of the fighting ended with the second Minsk accords. After 2017 on average only about a dozen people died a year from combat actions. So there couldn't have been much shelling going on in 2022.
How does a dozen or two deaths a year warrant an escalation to a hundred thousand deaths a year?
took away the rights of the Russian speaking population many times
Which rights, when did this happen? I'm honestly curious abuot this.
flagrantly violated both minsk accords.
Both sides did that. A lot.
But what does that have to do with Russia's 2022 invasion? Putin himself said that Russia would not get involved in the enforcement of the Minsk accords because it was an internal Ukrainian matter.
Also you are convenently forgetting that Russia has REPEATEDLY offered peace treaties,
Because Russia wants to not only keep the land they've invaded but also dictate the way Ukraine conducts it's diplomatic relations with other nations. Ukraine is fighting for it's sovereignty here. Russia is trying to take that away.
no I am talking about the shellings POST accord 1 and then agian POST accord 2.
I have not seen where Putin said he would not enforce it, however 1) Russia is a signitary so they have some enforcement ability, and second the Russian Speaking Minority did request aid
the first one I can think of, and this is not all of it, but Ukraine banned the use of Russian in all of Ukrane, (I mean if shelling homes after 2 peace treaties was not enough)
And at the start they where not wanting to keep the DPR and LPR, but instead get them recognized as independent nations, it was not untill after the votes of the DPR and LPR that they where planning on keeping them, also the USA and the EU are already controling and dictating Ukraines forign policy, so by that metric they are not sovern any way.
4 if you are refering to the not joining NATO both NATO and Ukraine had agreed that that wold never be an option, after the fall of the berlin wall, NATO garenteed Gorbie, that they would not expand past their current boarders, Russia is fighting an exsistintal threat, the aliance's express purpous is anti-russia pro USA, and there is farther proof, by every time that Russia (or the USSR) has asked to join they have been rejected out of hand. Russia is not trying to take away any sovernty
- what about the illigal coup carried out by the west when Ukraine was looking to be more friendly to russia?
Here's a documentary about it that leaves out most of the blood and gore that you could easily find if you looked: Donbass (2016). You will see a bit of people being burned to death in this documentary and some other injuries but not to the extent you could find in other videos of the time.
Here's a scene of the burning of the trade union building in 2014. Russian speakers were protesting regarding the repeal of a law which protected Russian as a minority language (or as the Ukrainian former soldier in the video states, they were "contesting a ban on the Russian language in Ukraine.") The protestors hid in the trade union building when Ukrainian right wing nationalists showed up. Eventually, the Ukrainian nationalists set fire to the building and many of the protesters burned to death, with those who jumped out of the windows getting beaten to death by the Ukrainian nationalists. (See also: "Burnt Alive in Odessa").
If you can stomach seeing bodies blown up in the streets, limbs removed, dead babies, and footage of people dying, there are other documentaries around which show it. It's not hard to find footage like this from 2014 onwards. E.g., Result of a 2014 shelling by Ukrainian military (CW: Numerous dead bodies); More aftermath of a shelling (CW: Extremely graphic, numerous mutilated bodies, and footage of a person dying).
You can make up your own mind about the conflict's particulars as you learn about it, but it's a mistake to ignore events happening before 2022 or treat them as insignificant.