It is essential to stop using Chrome. Under the pretense of saving users from third-party spyware, Google is creating an ecosystem in which Chrome itself is the spyware.
Dan Gillmor (@dangillmor@mastodon.social)
I work at a small company - absolutely everything from work macros, accounts and shortcuts are all intertwined in Chrome, they've been using it like that for ten years - it'd be faster for me to find a new job then to unclog that mess from the entire office. I still installed firefox for personal use though.
in my previous job we were allowed to install some old version of firefox through the companys own portal. but we couldn't access internet with it because "firefox is vulnerable". they use google suite so chrome was the default browser, but edge worked too and even IE...
I was in the same boat. Selenium with gecko driver was a pretty simple swap, just needed to Ctrl f replace a few things.
I keep going back and forth with Firefox and Vivaldi. The chrome based browsers just tend to run better. I love firefox on mobile but on desktop it's tougher for me to stick with. Also Mozilla seems to have a different goal for the future with all the other products and ai weirdness they recently announced.
All chromium browsers are supporting Google’s grip on the internet.
I'm in the exact same boat. Vivaldi devs are so open about everything they do that they've honestly earned my trust in their browser.
No nonsense and very clear options to disable data collection despite being a chromium based browser. I love firefox mobile's extensions but it just doesn't have the same consistency between desktop and mobile. For example, Vivaldi mobile let's you control site permissions to the level of controlling if they're allowed to play sound or not
Are those fractions of a second really worth your privacy?
I once commented saying something like, except for work, all Linux users should be using Firefox. And this was the reply. Some people are just fucking hopeless:
"Firefox has only ever been a sometime back-up browser for me.....ever since Chrome appeared in 2007. Prior to that, I used it because it was the sole usable alternative to Internet Exploder....
The Mozilla devs, for far too long, spent more time stabbing each other in the back than they did writing code and fixing the tons of problems that were always inherent in the code. It's the only browser I've ever used that used to regularly crash & burn at least a dozen times a day. And ya wonder why people flocked to Chrome?"
But it's true.
Serious question. Is it actually better for the typical user? I don’t mean people commenting here. I’m thinking about the majority that don’t care about privacy, blocking ads, quality technology, etc. for those people, I’m guessing that Firefox is equivalent. Just another browser that works fine. So why switch??
I run into compatibility issues and weird bugs with firefox a lot. I'm still using it as my primary browser, but I have to keep a chromium based browser ready for times when a website won't work in firefox. I can put up with that personally, but I wouldn't want to set up firefox on family/friend computers because I don't want to get a call whenever something doesn't work and they don't know why.
Chrome based browsers also have some super useful features (like tab groups) that firefox doesn't have a good alternative for.
For the overwhelming majority of users, they won't know the difference between using the two. People here are on a high inhaling the air in this echo chamber.
I've used Chrome on every device imaginable since Chrome was a thing. I've had a negligible amount of problems, in all my years. I absolutely hate that Google shuts services down when they get bored. And I absolutely hate what they did with Google Music and Google Chats, and Domains.
I move off Google services when they shut down. Besides that, I've no problems with the ones I use (minus nitpicks and the above products).
So to anyone here feeling bad and are afraid to comment on here because they don't want to lose Internet points, fret not. There are millions of us perfectly satisfied using Google, PAYING for their services where we see fit, and generally not worrying at all about any of this.
To be fair, chromebooks are great devices for kids, and the family link platform makes keeping them "secure", easier... a lot easier!!!
Even on Chromebooks you can install Firefox.
some small problems i face is that
while i use youtube it runs slower.
and the quick image search feature using google lens is not present.
and telegram voice call does not work.
Where as,
youtube = googlie
google lens = googlie
and
telegram via web requires chromium api, so = googlie
Hmm, proprietary things that are totally under the control of the corpo in question run slower or not at all on the corpo's competitor's browser. I wonder if that isn't exactly what avoid a monoculture is all about preventing?
Ah yes, google nerfing its own services under another browser for its own gain definitely isn’t the issue here.
You can use a different frontend for YouTube. You’ve got Freetube for pc, Yattee for MacOS and iOS and piped on any platform. These solutions also protect your privacy and block ads.
That's because YouTube detects the browser you are using, and slows it down for browsers that aren't their own.
and the quick image search feature using google lens is not present
There's an addon that not only adds that back into the right click menu but also adds support for other image searching services!
Its called "search by image" and it works very well ime
You use TG in a browser?
Chrome is great at multi-user switching. FF in comparison is @$$ in that respect... I went back to FF around a month ago after a decade long hiatus.
Horses and water
Some websites load faster in Chrome. But the reason why Chrome is so ubiquitous is because for normal people, Google is still the plucky user friendly company they were in the early 00s.
Firefox is better on desktop, but on mobile it still sucks, sometimes it is even refusing to load websites.
Because normies were using IE, then enough of them had their "tech enthusiast" grandson show them Chrome in 2010 and now that's all they use.
No lie, I actually had to shift to Chrome from Firefox today. Some websites are straight-up broken on Firefox, while others load painfully slow (e.g. try arc.net on Firefox vs any Chromium-based browser). Not to mention the massive shame of Mozilla leadership treating its own flagship product as a second-class citizen in favour of "AI initiatives" or whatever the fuck those C-suites want to stud into their resumes.
Firefox is right there and is a better browser to boot. I genuinely have no idea why
I used to use mozilla by Mozilla, too. THAT's why.
Okay I'm happy to switch, I used to use Firefox years ago until Chrome came along and it's a great browser, but can I integrate my Google accounts with it?
I want it to sync all my stuff to my Google accounts, and so far I've not found another browser that can do this :-(
I'm also not sure if all the plugins I have would have Firefox implementations, maybe they do. I use Darkreader, some password vault stuff, uBlock, SponsorBlock and the other YouTube one they make (I forget the name) are an absolute must, too.
Firefox sync will do the same without spying on you.
Firefox has Firefox Accounts which will do just the same. All those extensions are also available. You may find the odd extension is missing but there is usually a decent replacement about.
All work on Firefox.
While you can't use Google password-manager easily on Firefox (probably there is a plugin for that) the Firefox password-manager is better in my opinion.
The Google account stuff works mostly, but I don't know what you exactly want to do. You should try it out.
Firefox is not the better browser in anything but privacy. Maybe it could win in customisability, but that's something only a few percent of users care about.
It has longer load times and sometimes breaks sites entirely while using about the same resources. Yes, the reason for that is that website creators don't deliberately support it, but the normal user only cares about functionality.
I still use it and recommend it to anyone that asks, but saying that it's the better browser is just delusional.
Chrome’s developer tools are better, and having two browsers open at the same time while programming is a strain on RAM resources, especially since Visual Studio Code needs to run in its own Chromium.
"But Chrome is slightly more convenient! Why would I suffer tiny inconvenience today in order to save me from way greater inconvenience later? Who am I? Some reasonable person?" - typical Chrome user.
As a former chrome user it's so real. Chrome connects every device for you and once you ARE in the loop it's hard to leave it. Wanna switch to Firefox? Oops suddenly your authentication doesn't work anymore. Oh what about those useful Google logins tied to everything now? Good luck with that.
It took me huge effort to switch off chromium based browsers because the longer you use chrome, the more it worms it's way into all your services making it harder and harder to switch. I still can't figure out how to seperate my Yahoo account from my Gmail account
A huge reason I left is realising that if google decided I broke their TOS on something like say, YouTube ad blocking, they can just terminate by Google account and every service attached to it suddenly becomes unusable. I'd rather not be taken hostage like that
Edit: for all the wise people in the comments. I was trying to decouple entirely from Google products, not just chrome
What you're describing sounds more like over-reliance on Google services than the browser. I don't use gmail or google logins anywhere, I just have Bitwarder plugin to manage my authentication and use masked emails to create accounts. I did the same in all the different browsers I used over the years and never had any issues with it or with switching between browsers.
Firefox syncs across devices as well, if you sign up for a Firefox account and enable sync. This works for bookmarks, logins, history, and you can even access remote tabs if you want. It's also easy to send a single page from one device to another.
On desktop, Firefox has an import feature that will pull your bookmarks and logins m other browsers (like Chrome) into your Firefox profile.
Even if you're neck-deep in Google services, Chrome doesn't do anything special.
I didn't have this experience at all. I switch browsers all the time just so I can know how they are, it's painless every time. I've used non-chromium edge, chromium Edge, Brave, Chrome, Firefox, OperaGX, and probably something else. Chrome is probably my least favorite, as it just doesn't have any bells and whistles.
what about those useful Google logins tied to everything now? Good luck with that.
What? You can still use your Google account without Chrome...
Unless you're not talking about OAuth. Is it Chrome's password manager? Because I'm pretty sure that's easily exportable...
For me it was as easy as download > export bookmarks and passwords. Nothing broke. I even still use my google account to login to some services. It just brings up the google popup and I'm in.
What authentication doesn't work anymore in FF...?
We can't forget that a lot of people have absolutely no idea that this is happening or what it means. Many folks just think the Chrome icon is how you access the internet and have no idea that there are other options. Helping to educate those folks is going to be a significant part of minimizing Chrome's dominance.
I've been removing Google services from my life bit by bit over the past year, and I have to say it is crazy how hard it actually is! They have inserted themselves into so many digital workflows, securing monopoly positions and preventing the rise of competitors and open ecosystems. In many areas the only alternatives are other tech giants, or accepting feature downgrades and having to set things up manually.
I'm really glad that the browser is one area where the transition is actually very simple and straightforward!
What lessons have you learned so far? I've switched to FF and DDG with great results, but still use Gmail/android/photos.
I urge you to check out Kagi Browser[1]. I forgot how pain-free using a search engine could be. With Google, a relatively simple search had me typing:
sink tap gasket intitle:"replacement" OR intitle:"repair" filetype:pdf OR filetype:doc inurl:product OR inurl:details "made in" (site:.com OR site:.co.uk OR site:.de) -site:amazon.com -site:ebay.com
I am appreciative that I've gotten pretty good at finding obscure nuggets of info, and it makes Google Dork[2] searches even more fun, but when I simply need "where to by $x", Google shat out mindless SEO content.
I also highly recommend Fastmail[3] as an alternative email host. Far cheaper than Google Workspace for custom domains, and their masked email function is wonderful, even more so with 1Password[4].
Turning your back from the abusive Google can look intimidating to begin with, but it turns out it takes very little effort if you make a lil' plan of alternative services to use.
I can recommended proton to get away from gmail. They also offer a bigger suite with a few other services like cloud storage, VPN, password manager.
The transition is super easy, they also have a free tier if you want to try it out. Though if you like it I recommend sending some money there way, even with a basic subscription
The biggest thing is probably that you'll have to pay for things if you want something that's ethical and preserves your privacy, either a paid service or some initial investment into self-hosting (what I did). It's 100% worth it imo though, being mostly free from big tech feels really nice!
More specifically, I can highly recommend getting a Synology NAS and your own domain name. They have great replacements for many Google apps, and you can also try out open source alternatives with Docker.
Cannot recommend Immich enough as a self-hosted Photos alternative. Obviously not a drop in replacement, and if you don't want to self-host it's not really feasible. But it is just awesome.
Or Tuta(nota) https://tuta.com are good!
How many google services do you have? I just have one, and if I ever deleted it, all of the google apps I use would become worthless.
i switched to calyx os yesterday and i love it already!
You need to have effective replacements.
This is why Apple is so popular… much more thoroughly integrated, in many cases a better product, and for the most part paying more than just lip service to privacy.
About the only Google services I still use is the search engine (while it is still marginally useful), and Maps (since so many people on FB Marketplace also use it, so sending an address using a maps link is the ideal solution).
Yeah, I'll never use Chrome again. Google has always been shady, but this latest round of anti-features is unbelievable. I'm shocked there's been no anti-trust suits related to what they're doing with Chrome. Firefox is just a better browser with way more security options and extension support. That alone is enough for me to stick with it.
you can always enable Project Fission for a better sandbox in Firefox.
lmao at the thought of mozilla suing microsoft. Basically no resources vs functionally infinite resources, they would stand no chance at all. I don't know if you've noticed but our legal system is based on a variation of might vs right, we could call it rich vs bitch for convenience
Firefox has always been great to use for me.
I have to restart it once or twice each day as it refuses to play videos or audio after a while. I know it's not a settings or add-on issue, and I searched everywhere for an explanation. It fucking sucks. I'm this close to going back to Chrome.
If you're the only one who has that issue, or it's very uncommon, then it's more likely a software or hardware configuration issue or some corruption on your systems part.
Just saying this, when I used to run windows, weird bugs like that as a cue to do a complete reinstall of windows. Usually would fix every problem I'd been having with every app to date.
Even now deleting everything associated to Firefox and reinstalling the app would probably fix it. The other thing to do is to keep an eye on the behaviour of your browser after installing extensions. Sometimes extensions themselves can cause weird problems.
There are a couple tiny issues I have with it that drive me nuts (namely: 1 how they implement the CSS blur filter sucks and 2 the fact that they haven't implemented page transitions even though I think it was their idea to start with (?))
But other than those things, I certainly don't feel like I'm missing anything by ditching Google.
'Work' bookmarks
Sure buddy.
That's where you're wrong, buddy.
I keep it all in Forums where nobody would think to look.
Chrome: First-party spyware.
If Firefox goes away, I'll use Epiphany or Konquerer before I subject myself to anything that makes me view ads.
FF has way too much groundwork laid and way too much mindshare currently (especially given the rust language and all..) If, for some reason, thousands of devs just gave up on mozilla, more would continue the path and fork it most likely.
I've used Firefox for years. It's always been the underdog imo.
If it ever becomes the top dog, I'll switch! To the next privacy underdog. More competition is good.
FF has always been security conscious and was actually the big dog until around 2007 or so when they had to do a full rebuild of their code and this made it so that a lot of peoples' favorite plugins stopped working until they were updated. This coincided with when Chrome started to become bigger and people switched. Now people are switching back. I use a combination of FF and Opera GX.
IIRC they switched to webextensions in Firefox 57 in 2017. Even before that it was never the browser with the biggest market share, and Chrome had already got a huge market share in 2017.
I've been using Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox as my default browser since 2003. Never understood the appeal of Chrome.
So Firefox and Chromium.
FF was definitely the top dawg through the last half of the aughts. People got frustrated with the constant updates. Chrome had a lot of hype and for a while was the slick new browser. It didn't take long for it to get just as slow as FF used to be, but now more enterprise web-apps will cripple compatibility on non-chromium browsers so it doesn't matter how good FF gets.
I was one of the users who left because TabMixPlus stopped working. Never worked again, so I'm with Vivaldi. I know; it's built on Chromium, but being able to have my tabs on the bottom of the window is worth it for me.
At one point it was the top dog - this was before google was even in the browser market mind you. Then they entered and used a lot of... Shall we say interesting marketing practices to usurp firefoxes dominant position - it wasn't all due to chrome being better.
Sadly, it was at most a distant second to IE, until Chrome infected the whole planet.
I've read so many bs paid-off articles recently how chrome is so much better than firefox, or firefox has nothing left to give to its users
I agree it's BS, but how do you know they're "paid off"? What's an example of one that was "paid off"?
Made the switch to Firefox last year. Love, love, love the freshness and versatility of the browser! Also add-ons for mobile!!!!
Chrome is the new reddit
So nothing will change 😅
Lots of people can't just straight up ditch it. I have had multiple websites just don't work with Firefox regardless of whatever add-ons I put. For me I just go into a Windows sandbox, but there's people who are not that tech savvy and it's often forced on them. Also iirc most schools have chrome books they let students use. So it's basically forced onto people.
Do you have any examples? I have used Firefox for years and never experienced this, nor heard of anyone I know who uses Firefox experiencing this.
Not the commenter, but...
I play tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder 2e for those care) online with some friends, and we use a website which hosts the program (forge-vtt.com).
For the life of me, I cannot get it to behave on Firefox. Maps will be pitch black while on Chrome they render perfectly. I've tried every permutation of browser setting and extension toggling I can think of to no avail.
I've hit the odd site where a menu doesn't work the way it should, the payment form doesn't work, overall form validation is wonky, or the captcha doesn't work. I attribute most of these to slight nuances in javascript between browsers.
I'm a (old, grey) dev, and I've had to shame colleagues into testing in mobile browsers other than Chrome and Safari.
Sonys website immediately comes to mind
Trying to get my account back for my PS5 forced me to use edge for it to work at all
And then to use edge on my wife's PC because something I have installed REALLY pisses Sony off
Oftentimes, when I use Firefox (Main browser on my phone) things just don't render/show up. One thing I noticed was when I input my area code to find a package distribution center, and it straight up didn't show. Iirc it relied on Google maps for showing these places.
It worked in Chrome. Not pointing any fingers, it's just odd, is what I'm saying.
I use Firefox except for one thing: web serial. Chrome is the only browser that supports it. Luckily you only need it the when setting up an ESP32 for the first time and can do updates wirelessly.
Today there was a page on my bank that just would not load in Firefox even though the rest of the site was fine. Switched to Chrome and it worked fine. I only use Chrome in these situations.
This is the Proxmox console on any of my VMs or LXCs in Firefox. Works just peachy in any Chromium-based browser.
Use a Chromium fork instead if you're having so much trouble. Thorium is a decent alternative.
Just another reason to avoid it as much as possible.
I have had multiple websites just don't work with Firefox regardless of whatever add-ons I put.
The exact reason why we encurage to ditch Chrome.
I have had multiple websites just don’t work with Firefox regardless of whatever add-ons I put.
Have you tried to change the browser's user agent ?
We really need more browser engines floating around.
As of now we really only have 3, Webkit, Firefox Gecko, and Chromium Blink.
Everything is based on these 3. And I know, technically chromium and firefox are both based on webkit, but they're so far gone from webkit they function as their own engines.
Firefox isn't based on WebKit. Maybe you're thinking Safari.
Ultimately you really only have KHTML (what Webkit was forked from), Gecko, Triton (IE classic), and I can't recall what the new (now dead) engine in IE11 was called. The rest are forks, mostly of Webkit/KHTML.
I guess there's Ladybird and Servo too, but they are a way still from being used as a daily driver.
I doubt that's what they meant since Safari currently uses WebKit. But yeah, maybe they meant how WebKit is a fork of KHTML and Chrome is a fork of WebKit.
tbh i think it would be better if there was a single collaborative engine instead, owned by a non-profit company like The Linux Foundation
maybe the W3C could establish their own but idk if they even do anything these days
As of now we really only have 3, Webkit, Firefox, and Chromium.
Webkit is the only browser engine in that list; the other 2 are browsers, not engines. Firefox uses the Gecko engine. Chrome/chromium use Blink engine.
Gecko came from Netscape. Webkit came from KHTML. Pretty sure Gecko/Firefox are not Webkit based. Blink is though.
Well of course. Now all your traffic goes through proxies to Google's servers for analytics.
100℅ data harvesting.
Genius move by Google. Even calls it a security/privacy measure!
They will succeed too. Most of the human race are Neanderthals anyway. Couldn't care less.
Please don't with this tech elitest stuff. Yeah, most people will continue to use chrome because they don't really understand the gravity of what it means for their privacy, doesn't mean we can't do our best to help them out.
It's like oil dependency, we could blame the individual but that really doesn't help the situation. Unless of course we're talking about individual executives, those bastards are totally culpable.
Well said. Contempt for the average user makes it easy to forget one's humanity.
You did so well until the last few sentences. Casually throwing everyone under the bus as idiots isn't a great move.
To be blunt, there's a lot of tech noobs out there that have always been, and will always be, fairly bad with technology. There's an even larger number that can't be bothered to pay attention or care about it. And finally, there's the enthusiasts and the tech savvy, most of whom are working in a tech related field (or want to). Special shout out to the enthusiasts who don't work in a tech field who are still quite savvy. But let's face it, the enthusiasts and the tech savvy are a minority. We are not their targets. Fact is, even if you're using Google's various services or Chrome or whatever, the tech literate are at least aware of what's happening, and a nontrivial number of them are here. Including you and I.
It then becomes our job to save others from themselves and get them away from the products looking to harm them. Throwing in the towel and calling everyone neaderthals isn't the way to accomplish this. If we all do our part, we can save those we care about from becoming yet another battery in the machine, with all their data flowing through one company. It's our duty.
For those that REALLY want to help, get involved in local politics and be the change. Help push regulation on the corporate shills that want it all. Whether that's running for office, or contacting your local representative or whatever, it's something that should be done. They shouldn't be allowed to just implement, what is essentially mass surveillance on the world without someone doing something about it. That's what the government is supposed to be there to do. I'll reserve my comments about how effective they've been in the past or how corrupt the whole system is, because that will vary from country to country. But bluntly, you can be that change by getting involved.
As to the comments about the general idiocy of the population of earth, I say this: do you know it all? Well, neither do they. Nobody does. Can you fix your car and then turn around and frame a shed from scratch? Me neither. Can you perform experiments to discover new and exciting things in quantum physics, then build a toaster from raw materials? Me neither. Can you fix your plumbing, then create a program in Pascal that does your taxes for you? Me neither. Everyone has their skills, talents and expertise. Simply because there is a large percentage of people whose expertise is not tech, doesn't, and shouldn't, invalidate their intelligence as an individual.
Check yourself, or the next time you have a problem you don't know how to fix, people might just throw in the towel on helping you.
Don't Be Evil!
Google recently revised that motto, it now has a comma after the first word.
Way ahead of you. Been using Firefox since it was called Phoenix.
If I'm forced to use a Chrome browser, I use a deGoogled version of chromium. I can't think of the last time I've had to use it though. Firefox support is a priority for my company's IT dept.
since netscape navigator here. even used netscape during the dark ages (when aol controlled it).
I was so happy when Netscape 4.0 released for OS/2.
The new McAfee.
My main problem is that I prefer other frontends to Firefox. I mostly use Vivaldi and think it's great, but of course it's Chromium based. I read somewhere that it's just way easier to base a browser on Chrome than it is to base one on Firefox. It would be great if the frontend and backend were separated with a unified API and you could simply choose a frontend/interface (Vivaldi) with whatever backend/engine (Gecko). That's not how it (currently) works though.
There are Firefox forks, but they're just that: forks with slight modifications. Vivaldi and Arc are basically completely different browsers. Even Orion isn't based on Gecko, it's based on WebKit.
Add to that small compatibility issues with certain websites/web apps that aren't Firefox' fault, but rather developers targeting Chrome instead of "100 % web standards". Still, as a user you'll likely into (small) issues from time to time.
People saying "just use Firefox" have a very narrow view on how any of this works and I sometimes feel like it's some form of elitism where the cool kids use Firefox and everybody using anything else are "lesser people". In reality, people have different requirements and priorities. It's similar to people posting "just use Linux" under every article talking about problems with Windows.
Yes, Chrome and Google sucks, I agree, but there isn't a single universal solution to this problem.
People saying "just use Firefox" have a very narrow view on how any of this works
No, not at all. I understand perfectly. Your concerns are valid.
Our point is not supporting Chrome is more important in the long run.
There is no front end in the world that will make up for the loss of true ad blocking and everything else Google pushes down the line.
Let's be clear about this:
I don't want to tell you to use Firefox. I want to tell you to use whatever you like. I wish we lived in a world where the choice didn't matter.
But we don't
When I'm telling people to use firefox, I'm telling them if you have a problem with the direction the internet is going in, you actually have to do something about it beyond just complaining. Support the competition, the only non-profit in the space, and the only true alternative browser left. Because everything is going to get exponentially worse without competition, and we really really need to preserve the one remaining safe refuge.
Well, you're not saying just use Firefox, you actually bring up valid points and reasoning. Just look at the top comment of this post stating "Not using Chrome is so easy" when it's not.
Let me clarify that I don't hate Firefox, it's my second most used browser on the desktop after Vivaldi, I just don't think it's a great browser with its current feature set. Mind you, as soon as ad blocking becomes infeasible with Chrome and forks I'll instantly bite the bullet and fully switch to Firefox. But as it stands right now, Firefox is lacking features (some of them almost essential if you ask me, see my comment about passkeys) and compatibility (rarely Firefox' fault, but rather a result of the Chrome semi-monopoly).
The main problem is that Firefox is the only alternative to a Chromium browser on non-Apple platforms, but it's not the solution to everyone's problems. Let's see if and when Orion is going to get ported to Windows/Linux.
What features does Vivaldi have that don't exist in a FF extension?
And using a WebKit based browser is still better than using a chromium fork.
I don't know. I still prefer having vertical tabs, tab grouping, workspaces, web panels, proper loading information, full page screenshots and way more integrated in my browser instead of having to rely on possibly dozens of different extensions that in my testing never provided nearly as good of an experience.
Implementation details matter.
I could never get hardware accelerated video working with Firefox on my Linux laptop, and Google Meet (used for work) doesn't work well ( but I guess I blame Google for that).
Why is using WebKit-based browser “better” than Chromium-based one? Neither supports Google’s monopoly. Vivaldi is not just a skin for Google Chrome, it continues to support manifest v2 extensions and proper adblockers. And the company is owned by the workers, which is super cool
It would be great if the frontend and backend were separated with a unified API and you could simply choose a frontend/interface (Vivaldi) with whatever backend/engine (Gecko). That’s not how it (currently) works though.
Arc has floated this idea. Currently Arc is Chromium-based, but they say they've designed it to allow for swapping engines in the future.
IIRC, Edge had a similar feature for a while, allowing you to run legacy Internet Explorer tabs if a site required it. Not sure if that still exists.
I tried really hard to use Floorp which fixes most of my problems with stock Firefox but even that just showed me how excellent Vivaldi is compared to other browsers.
Let me add that support for passkeys is becoming more and more important and Firefox doesn't support passkeys. Yes, it supports forms of WebAuthn (YubiKey and the likes), but not "scan this QR code with your smartphone and use biometric authentication to sign in".
Writing a new ff UI is pretty easy. The entire UI is written in html at this point. I'm not sure why people would say it's "hard" to change.
Embedding gecko into something requires work (even that isn't that hard really, you just have to hand it a gl surface and pass through inputs)
You admit in the opening of your comment that your issue is preference and then go on to say there's no single universal solution.
There absolutely is a single universal solution. Either adapt your preference and use a different browser until you're familiar enough with it to prefer it, or adapt your preference to admitting that you don't care that Google is getting your data more than you care about being ever-so-slightly inconvenienced. It's pretty simple.
Ironically, in the past year, one of my employers specifically disallowed Firefox due to a CVE, saying that we were to use Chrome. A Cybersecurity professional once told me that Firefox is frowned upon because of CVEs.
A Cybersecurity professional once told me that Firefox is frowned upon
This has been rampant for years now.
There was a massive movement years ago to get every user on Chrome. Even going so far as to replace all appearances of IE with Chrome, then change the Chrome desktop icon to the IE icon, then tell the users it’s a new better version of IE.
What is a CVE?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures
not being a jerk, just in a hurry
May I ask what specific CVE and when your professional told you that?
I don't recall the CVE, it was likely months ago, and I wasn't in a position to argue.
The Cyber guy said that a few years ago (3?).
I’m glad I’m in a position to basically never have to touch a chrome or chrome derivative for my work. It was a necessary evil to finally kill internet explorer, but these days it’s just hostile to its users.
I've been using Firefox since somewhere around 2008, it's been a dream the whole time.
Highly recommended
Tiny devils advocate, IF we can make it so ONLY Google can spy on us and malware adware can NOT spy on us would be an “improvement”. Google is a lot easier to target with regulation and stuff.
That said, I wouldn’t touch Google with a 10 foot pole.
You're not wrong. One spy is better than 1+x spies, especially if that one spy is well controlled with regulation. Better than bad is still not necessarily good.
It's a false dichotomy. We can't make it so only Google can spy on us, and conceding to Google has no impact on other malware. Besides, it's the largest advertising company in the world by a large margin, with a near monopoly on online advertising. It probably wouldn't even make a difference.
Oh, no, no, no, it can look like a good thing, but it's terrible. If google gets the "spying monopoly", they will have such power in their hands that they will be able to, alone, to things like manipulate your habits and routine, decide when you should replace your electronics, manipulate elections, markets, and so much more. It can seem, at first, that it would be easier to "just block google and that's it" or "just let the governments regulate them", but in reality, they would create a scenario where you couldn't even browse the web or use simple tech devices without being logged in in a "safety-something compatible device", while lobbying heavily to do so.
They're already trying to go that way. With a monopoly, they would simply have no resistance at all.
Thanks for the reminder. I've switched to Firefox on my mac and iphone for personal use. I just need to move some web development stuff around so I can switch to Firefox on that too. I may even uninstall google chrome, but for now I've just taken it off the task bar.
Correct me if I am wrong but arent Apple based browsers all modifications of WebKit/Safari?
Or is it a iOS/iPad OS specific thing and MacOS is actually free from those restrictions by being able to sideload.
That's exclusive to iOS/iPad OS. There aren't any such restrictions on macOS.
They are all webkit-based, but they can add their own integrations like Google account login for Chrome or Firefox Sync. So it would still be benificial to boycott if you reasonably can and are willing, especially with the recent App store developments Apple might even be forced to open up browsers as well.
That's an iOS/iPadOS thing. Mac browsers can use any rendering engine they want.
I came back to firefox after vivaldi and edge when google announced manifestv3, decided to do it already since they would at best delay it instead of canceling it, and that's exactly what they did.
Yeah yeah, Mozilla pays its clueless CEO and other execs way too much, mismanages its finances in general, fired the wrong people, fell for the hype about AI, has a board full of former Facebook and Twitter execs, relies excessively on telemetry to justify their worst UI design decisions, and occasionally has delusions about someday becoming an ad platform.
If it weren't for all that we'd all be better off. But sometimes you gotta vote for the lesser evil, and at least they don't do all this shit.
The one feature that I really liked that's still in chromium other than Google cast is still Web Apps.
I like to be able to make a desktop application out of a web page. Firefox has this feature with PRISM a while back. Did it ever come back?
I do believe there is either a flag or an add on that gives you this option again. I haven’t used it in a while so don’t quote me on that.
Found it. It is an add on. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/pwas-for-firefox/
The add-on is pretty hacky in my experience. I want native PWA support.
Yes
For casting, you can use VLC Media Player.
Firefox main since 2020. Love it.
While I agree on this, I think Ungoogled Chromium could be a soft way to degoogle yourself while maybe looking for complete replacements. It took me almost 2 weeks to degoogle me almost totally, at the beginning having a minimum of compatibility is nice
The only Google thing holding me back from full degoogling is YouTube, but with how garbage the platform is becoming, especially with the algorithm just going berserk and it probably not being long until I start being affected by the adblock-block, I think moving away from it is only going to be easier than ever before.
serious question: what do for email if you've been a gmail user for .... (checks notes) ... almost 20 years? self hosted?
honest question. I'm interested, but really have no idea what my options are when I've had the same email address for half my life / all of my adult life.
Since I feel you, and since I have a lot of nice subs on youtube, I feel like suggesting something like Piped as a privacy focus frontend or, if you are more of a standalone app person, FreeTube as a privacy focus client.
Technically we are still using YouTube, but at least there is less food for the algo.
Or just use Firefox...?
I have switched to Firefox but I'm having a hard time. Firefox feels sluggish compared to Chrome and uses an insane amount of memory. And I really miss tab groups as Chrome had them. There are some add-ons for Firefox that try to imitate this feature but none of them has everything I want (e.g. the ability to collapse a group in the top tab bar). And most of them build on top of Firefox tab groups which come with an isolation feature I don't want (and haven't found a way to disable for tab groups).
My experience has been the opposite. I will have far too many tabs and windows open and with Chrome I would often see memory usage over 10gb. And on more than one occasion I'd have to end task on chrome as it was locking or already locked up.
Switched [back] to Firefox in the last year or two, same plugins, no change in behavior, and it never locks up. Memory usage is fine. Right now with just as many windows and tabs open it's using 5gb ram.
Chrome has been uninstalled from my PC.
And the tab containers plugin from Mozilla is really incredible.
I like the idea of tab isolation, but I don't want to be forced to use it for every tab group. I want to use tab groups to organize my tabs because I have way too many of them open at the same time. I often create tab groups on the fly just to keep things organized. I don't want to login into every account once I decide I need a new tab group.
All you said plus Firefox's rendering looks like total crap. Maybe you would like ungoogled-chromium?
And... for what's worth Firefox is a privacy nightmare as well, just start Wireshark and launch the browser to see what it does. LibreWolf or ungoogled-chromium always.
What are you using that makes it crash, virtually never happens to me.
For me Firefox crashes all the time in normal use. I am talking minimum twice a day. It also has this weird problem where it will pin one thread to 100% and lock up the whole browser when downloading files. I also had to disable video hardware acceleration or else Twitch crashes every 5-10 minutes but luckily my CPU is so strong that it's not too big of a deal to do software decoding.
I still use it out of principle but it has been a way worse experience than Chromium ever was for me.
hardly any issues here, either. and we abuse tf out of firefox.. 300+ tabs? stay open for days on end? multiple addons? on c2d-era desktops? no problem.
I use Firefox all day on both Mac and Windows and this rarely happens. It does seem to happen on Linux for me sometimes though.
Tab crashes with ublock enabled or without?
If without, it's probably ads/trackers crashing the tab.
Vivaldi user since 2015. Never looked back.
Firefox user since ever. Never looked anywhere.
Vivaldi is Chromium under the hood.
I know that, they have always been about privacy, and they are taking a stance against Google's changes.
Ok so I really wanna switch, but I need to have multiple Gmail accounts active at the same time for work, as we have various logins tied to various profiles. From what I can tell Firefox doesn't yet support multiple profiles being active at the same time. Do I have any options here? I need to be able to access the support inbox and login to our platform, while simultaneously being logged in to my own email and my platform login. Chrome profiles makes this easy, annoyingly.
Yes you can. With container tabs.
Since nobody linked it, here you go: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-use-firefox-containers
It's actually super useful.
Hey, thanks for the link. Im finally able to uninstall chrome from my laptop now
Thank you! I work in tech but I'm kinda focused on specific things so anything outside my field of view sounds super daunting. I'll take a look!
you can do this within gmail and also using the multi account containers in firefox
Not only do I do that, I have also created separate desktop icons for each Firefox profile
Yes you can. With Firefox containers.
I often have multiple tabs with different inboxes open in Firefox. No extra features required AFAIK it just works.
Firefox can even have different accounts in different tabs with the official containers extension.
Firefox does have profiles that you can use simultaneously, but you'll either have to start it with the --ProfileManager command line option or install something like Profile Switcher to access them.
You have a couple options, as others have mentioned: multiple browser profiles and container tabs. The profiles don’t work quite as well as in Chrome because switching between them isn’t as convenient. Besides that, it’s the same thing. Container tabs is where it’s at. With those, you can use multiple profiles in the same window and set up rules to open certain sites in specific containers. Also check out the Simple Tab Groups extension. It’s similar to Vivaldi’s workspaces but more powerful when combined with container tabs.
You can use the inbuilt containers to separate cookies, which should allow you to use multiple accounts simultaneously. Profiles appears to be the direct equivalent to chromium profiles however and may function better but I haven't used it yet.
Does Simple Tab Groups do the trick?
I post Contra Chrome every time Chrome and spyware are mentioned, but I'll post it here again.
I use Chrome on the rare occasion when I have no choice but to use FB. Always with VPN. Otherwise it's FF.
Why use Chrome for Facebook? The Facebook container sufficiently isolates it.
Good point, old habits from before the FB container existed.
I am going to be downvoted to hell for this. I use Mullvad Browser/LibreWolf on desktop but on Android I prefer Chromium. I was using Firefox until a couple months ago when I switched back to Vanadium/Cromite. Chromium on Android is very nice. First it has Material You support so it looks much better than Firefox. Second, it loads website faster and it scrolls buttery smooth unlike the noticeably choppier Firefox. Plus it has 120hz on the privacy preserving forks unlike Firefox which is stuck on 60hz with RFP on. Third, Chromium has per-site process isolation on Android so it has better security. I probably won't be switching back until Firefox catches up on those fronts.
You seem to have very high requirements for a mobile browser. None of this have been an issue for me in years of Firefox mobile. Maybe philosophy is worth a little bit of discomfort.
Write it in the fucking sky, my friend.
People need to rediscover what the word "principle" means and why they need to be fought for.
If you care about them, you'll tolerate a little inconvenience and you'll put a little time into adapting, maybe even learning.
If you can't muster any desire to stick to principles, you'll be in threads like this forever, helpless, and complaining over and over as things continue to shift further in a direction you don't wanna go in.
Yeah, maybe. Felt kinda like betraying my faith or something at first when I switched back lol but I got used to it.
Feels like an ad...
I think people would let every company watch them take a shit if it meant they got dark mode on their app...
honestly I heavily agree, Firefox on android is just a worse and choppier experience and I'd love for it to get a major overhaul to bring it back up to modern standards
I couldn't care less about 120Hz when my privacy is at stake. Even if chrome has per tab isolation, I'm sure Google's got its mittens in there somewhere.
A second load time difference, meh. Not a big deal to me. Same with materialU
I switched to Firefox and using DDG as my search engine about 2m ago and I'll be honest I really don't care for it. I'm trying my best but I use my phone for 100% of my browsing and not being able to set a home page sucks and with DDG searching for stuff takes significantly longer to get answers with. I search for a ton of stuff that I just need a quick answer to that when searching for Google would just show the answer instead of needing to open links and such. I'm giving it a bit more time but I'll probably end up back with chrome.
Try the startpage search engine. It has been much better for me than DDG.
Firefox allows you to select a home page, tho? Not sure what your problem with Firefox is.
It's not an easy transition. My partner works for DDG and I still don't use it all the time. To their credit they are working to improve things but it's a small team (comparatively). Their browser has some good features like app tracking protection just from having it installed and quick throwaway email support but isn't quite up to Firefox's standard (yet).
I use Firefox at home and on my phone. I still use chrome at work because of habit and because that's what most users use. Some of the other guys use Firefox anyway. Its dev tools seem fine.
Hoping someone can help explain this to me.
I understand Google is making some fairly sweeping changes to chrome that negatively affect the free internet. To what extent does that filter down into.the chromium based browsers? I have been struggling to find any relevant information on this, everyone just talks about it like they are all unique browsers
I have been using Vivaldi and really enjoying it, but it is chromium based, so of course it could be helping to support these changes, indirectly.
Thanks in advance
Always has been.
i just switched to firefox with ublock origin, it took a bit of getting used to but no real issue. Also started using thunderbird because microsoft pushing outlook (pay or have ads at the top of your inbox) and getting rid of their free mail app pisses me off, seems like big software companies are just getting bolder with their anti consumer practices.
IMHO, people in corporations should acknowledge that there is a growing user base for Firefox and give it as much priority as chrome. That way people in an organization can at least explore a different browser than chrome (especially the non-tech folks).
The reality is that companies test all their websites in Chrome. Any automation testing will also be focused on Chrome and Safari. Also majority of the developers use Chrome dev tools for debugging. I don't see that changing anytime soon. I feel that Firefox is like a second class citizen in their book.
But hey, that might be a good thing too. All the tracking B.S will be developed for chrome and We can continue to enjoy privacy with good old firefox.
Our automation tests run on Firefox on odd days and on Chrome on even days. I don't think it ever made a difference, tho. It's getting harder to create bugs that are specific to Firefox or Chrome. Safari, on the other hand, is a fucking mess.
Google in general is ass. That also includes your googled phones.
Waterfox baby.
I have been using the same web browser, in terms of codebase, ideology, and heritage, since 1993.
That’s almost a third of a century.
This is a post from a user who runs Google Android spyware 24/7…
Lineage/Graphene OS for the win
still waiting for anything that isnt mozilla or google based.
Thorium, oh good another chrome browser librewolf, oh good another firefox browser
PLEASE I BEG OF YOU, GIVE ME SOMETHING THAT ISN'T TAINTED.
So my gut instinct is to go to Firefox (again), but how can it compete? It’s down to like 2% market share, there’s a serious portion of the web that Firefox just can’t render anymore, and there’s all this press about the CEO getting this monsterous golden parachute.
So realistically what can anyone do but continue to use the only browser people ever really test sites for anymore, or swear allegiance to either Microsoft or Apple?
I've been using Firefox exclusively for close to twenty years now and non-compatible websites are extremely rare. I'm sure there are industry-specific shortcomings but for general usage it's always been acceptable at worst. And its market share is close to 7%.
I've only encountered 2 websites that didn't work properly in Firefox and it was only intermittently
Those 2 were Google Play Music and YouTube Music, and both were fixed within a few days. Basically it worked fine, then something broke, then Firefox patched and it worked again.
It was also right around the time Google Play Music was set to die.
Firefox can always compete, because if it ever stopped existing Google would have an antitrust case on their hands. For the same reason, Google cannot violate web standards, like what has happened in previous browser wars.
I don't agree that Firefox is unable to render a portion of the web, I've been using it for years and have never once run into a website that had a problem with my browser. I thought once that studentaid.gov did, but that turned out to be a problem with extensions. I've seen more websites that have issues with me using Linux than with Firefox.
Seems to me that Lemmy is nothing but a Firefox promo platform these days. For weeks this is the one and only trending topic.
Firefox is a great browser, but the people that advocate for it can be insufferable at times.
Yeah, I'm using it and have been using it for 17+ years. Use a sanitized chromium installation for the precious few sites that genuinely don't work in Firefox (I'm in China, there are a few of those). But the advocacy is annoying AF.
Lemmy is FOSS and largely used by anticapitalist tech nerds (I say this positively). Chrome is one of the most significant monopolies in tech. I don't know why you wouldn't expect this to be a common topic.
what are the other options
firefox is still not there in terms of language support and translating like chrome has etcetera
not bashing firefox or chrome honestly asking what else is there?
epiphany browser is even further behind
No idea what you're taking about, but I never had any issues translating sites with Firefox. Even Japanese or the likes.
translating like chrome
What?
Opera gx the only browser for gamers its advertised on YouTube so you know it's good
Let people use whatever they feel like, ffs.
but see, they wont. thats the problem.
google/microsoft are circling the wagons and are about to prevent anything but chrome and edge to be 'official browsers'
so, to your point, yes we want everyone to use what they want. but continuing to use chrome will kill the very ecosystem that allows the choice you want to have.
Those of us that lived through the active X nightmare are well aware of the danger monoculture creates. Shame educating others is considered offensive to the sheep.
google/microsoft are circling the wagons
MS would love to be a third option. Instead they admitted that they couldn't keep up with Google's constant change and proprietary extensions of Web standards that allow Google services to work with Chrome.
So Microsoft gave up and adopted Chromium.
MS isn't circling the wagons. They already surrendered to Google's monopoly.
This is the reason why we encurage more people to ditch Chrome, because sites starts to only support this one browser?
We don't force anyone to everything, we just want more usage so we cannot be forced.
If only you had made this comment regarding AI plaigirism, you'd be swimming in the upvotes instead
If I cared about upvotes (scores are disabled on my end, btw), I'd simply write "use Firefox" over and over, which is what most people on the fediverse like to do (as if Mozilla was any better, nowadays).
