Did you ever think that maybe all VPN services are actually secretly owned/funded by governments and that they are only giving you a false illusion of privacy?
All I know is that if you're very worried about being surveilled by governments, the Fediverse is the absolute last place you should want to be.
This is one of the most transparent platforms we have come up with yet. Instead of all your data only being viewable by a host company, it's viewable and able to be analyzed by basically anyone who puts some effort in. This makes it economically worthless, can't really sell something that everyone can already just get for themselves.
We're all out in the open here. So, wave to all the national security agencies everyone. Hiiiii! Hope you're all enjoying the memes!
👋👋👋
Most of the big social networks are owned by US companies. Those are forced to disclose user data to the US intelligence agencies, by the PATRIOT act and CLOUD act. And those will share it with the 14 Eyes.
So, you are right about Lemmy, but it's not true that data on traditional social media is only viewable by the host company.
Let’s not forget that classic corporate social media companies generally have way more information on their users as well.
I've gotta get busy posting dick pics then
What data does Lemmy log?
Very little in its current form, I think mainly just IP address.
Nah, most governments can just buy that data from the most of the VPNs if they need to - no need for secrecy.
If you think nord VPN is protecting you from government surveillance I have a bridge to sell you - it's really affordable.
How about Mullvad?
(https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/21/23692580/mullvad-vpn-raid-sweden-police)
No one is dumb enough to get scammed buying a bridge, but word is convective real estate is going to be the next hot investment. The buyers who get in early are going to pocket the most cash. Now's the time.
Fuck that sounds exciting. Could I timeshare that shit?
"from the most of the VPNs"
Aah, which VPN is "the most"?
That's a good question. If you don't know and trust the VPN owner you should be careful... that's why a lot of folks who specifically use a VPN for security reasons and have very good reasons to need to do that often just self-host a private VPN/tunnel exit.
Also considering you don't know me (still waiting on that coffee you said we'd grab) you probably shouldn't trust any list I gave you anyways.
That all said - Nord is probably on that list.
I fear false privacy because a corporation runs it. I've never been afraid of a government but I worry about corporate shittery all the time.
I use a VPN to stop work camps I stay at from knowing what porn I watch, to stop media companies from sending me copyright infringement notifications, and to stop public wifis from having as much info on me.
Its all about threat model. If you're concerned with government actors then you need to be more secure than just a VPN.
My countries intelligence agency is not working with media companies like that. The cops and courts would eventually enforce some order against me if it ever went to court but more likely is my ISP just ditches me as a customer if I get too many strikes.
History entered the chat
Slightly off-topic rant:
I hate how the 'VPN' term has been took over by companies selling services using VPN technology.
VPN was initially 'Virtual Private Network' – used to securely connect own (as belonging to an organization or person) devices over a public network. Like securely connecting bank branches. Or allowing employee connect to a company network. And VPN are still used that way. They are secure and provide the privacy needed.
Now when people say 'VPN' they often mean a service where they use VPN software (initially designed for the use case mentioned above) to connect to the public interned via some third-party. This is not a 'private network' any more. It just changes who you need to trust with you network activity. And changes how others may see you (breaking other trust).
When you cannot trust your ISP and your local authorities those 'VPNs' can be useful. But I have more trust to my ISP I have a contract with and my country legal system than in some exotic company in some tax haven or other country that our consumer protections or GDPR obligations won't reach.
Back to the topic:
I do not believe that all VPN services are owned/funded by governments, but some may be. I don't have much reason to trust them, they are doing it for money and not necessarily only the money their customers pay them. In fact I trust my government more that some random very foreign company.
I cringe when I see people touting VPN services as somehow better than HTTPS.
Sure VPN helps you re-source your IP address but that doesn’t do anything to help the security of online banking.
You know MITM an https website is child's play, right? If you're inputting your password on a network you don't trust you're doomed. SSL certificates are worthless because they can be easily forged by anyone pretending to be the site as long as they're between you and the actual site, which they need to be to MITM.
VPN and HTTPS solve different issues, and are better when used together. Most of the time you don't need a VPN because you trust your home network and ISP, but if you're using a public access point https does not replace a VPN.
Yes, I trust my ISP more than my VPN, but I trust my VPN more than I trust the random wi-fi in the shopping mall. Using a VPN in your house for internet access is pointless, unless you're purposefully trying to keep your ISP out of the loop for legal reasons, e.g. Torrent, but MITM a VPN is much harder to do than an open wi-fi.
Lucky you to be able to trust your ISP. Mine injects ads whenever they can, even hijack DNS and redirect invalid/blocked domains to a page full of ads.
In correct law, that'd be copyright-violation committed by your ISP:
IF the website you hit didn't authorize your ISP to create a derivative-work,
THEN your ISP adulterating it should be considered commercial-copyright-violation, and stomped by the copyright-lobby.
Notice how this has been going-on for decades, and the copyright-lobby .. ignores it, to stomp-on individuals only..
Interesting evidence of "rule of 'law'", isn't it?
I hate how the ‘VPN’ term has been took over by companies selling services using VPN technology.
Agreed. What they're really selling is a proxy service, I don't know why that term isn't used. The fact that VPN software is used to establish that proxy isn't relevant, the end result is a proxy.
How is the term "proxy" more appropriate though? It's also the technical name for a concept that already exists. VPNs are by definition broader in scope than proxies, they work at a lower level of the networking stack and have different capabilities even if most people don't take full advantage of it. Anyway the point is that it's not a more appropriate term.
Why is “governments” the boogeyman that comes to mind? Scammers and thieves would have much more interest in your everyday consumer internet usage.
Haha, nice try governments
What exactly do you mean by "scammers and thieves"? The only protection you get from a VPN is privacy from your ISP. That ISP obviously operates in your country (there has to be some physical connection) and is regulated by your government. It's easy for the government to demand data from the ISP about you (or about certain usage patterns and which users have them) without you knowing, not to mention how easy it is for the ISP itself to monetize your usage data.
A scammer or thief can't as easily grab hold of that data. If you're imagining a hacker gaining access to the ISP's database or network, that's certainly plausible but it's just as possible with a VPN provider. I personally don't think the big commercial VPNs are much more secure than ISPs. Maybe a little.
Its mostly protection when using public WiFi against spoofed website. Actually, not just public WiFi, it's protection when using any WiFi from routers whose owner never changed the default password or using really weak ones.
Did you even read the OP? A VPN that has real customers but is set up by a scammer can be doing anything on your computer. You install their client. It could be a key logger for all you know.
And not all services use end to end encryption so yes there is still the potential to listen to http traffic and extract data from it, especially as the VPN client.
No, but VPNs are a false illusion of privacy. When you use a VPN, you're really just shifting your trust from your ISP to the VPN company. And governments can just force both to give them the data they have about you
I agree, and of course it's a matter of trust. I am trusting what the VPN says when they say...they're physically incapable of storing logs. NordVPN & I think a couple others both claim their services literally don't store any logs of any kind.
So the feds could come around & demand info, but they shouldn't have anything.
It is safe to assume that somebody, somewhere, somehow could be watching you or have the capacity to monitor your web activity. If they gave a shit, if they cared enough to hone in on you. ¯°_o)/¯
It's not that simple though. VPN providers in most cases have been externally audited not to store any logs of user activity, meaning they couldn't comply with government requests of this nature. Generally, their entire legitimacy as companies depends on trust, meaning they have much stronger incentives to actually keep user data private than an ISP does. Of course I agree that using a VPN is no privacy silver bullet, but it's not like they have zero privacy benefits either.
That's why you do your research and use a VPN domiciled in a country that won't budge to requests coming from your country.
This is exactly right. If you really want to browse privately, use Tor.
I feel that if your government really wanted your secrets, they'd just send goons to your house to beat the fuck out of you.
I have a VPN to protect me from nosey bastard piracy lawyers.
100% this. OP is describing a great plot for an B-tier Hollywood movie, but reality tends to be much less thrilling. Obligatory xkcd.
Yeah and the bonus text is how I think. The CIA, NSA or whoever think you're too boring to bother with. Even if the VPN was directly owned by the NSA, they don't really care about whatever fetish porn you're jerking off to. If you're some kid still in your edgy socialist phase, they don't care. Sorry, you're just a basic bitch to them.
Generally speaking, governments aren't that good at keeping secrets at scale. Government-run VPNs would require a lot of people doing coordinated work; data center employees, ISPs, people passing themselves off as independent auditors, legal teams, marketing teams, and more. The more people you add, the less likely it is to be kept a secret. And all of this across multiple VPN companies (because there's no guarantee that the person you want to surveil is using the one you own) and internationally (many VPNs are based in or have major operations in multiple countries).
Now, is it possible that the NSA has an undisclosed financial stake in one or more VPNs and has secretly inserted a backdoor? Sure, anything is possible. But is that more likely than them just buying up Ring doorbell footage or doing large data analysis on social media activity? Or installing rootkits on your smartphone firmware? Or just good old fashioned LoJack?
If they have reason to investigate you, they're going to probably get everything anyway. No reason to make it easy for them by not using a VPN.
The more people you add, the less likely it is to be kept a secret.
This is also one of the most convincing arguments about most conspiracy theories. Most would require so many people to never talk that the secret would be about as secret as North Korea's fake grocery stores
Indeed. The biggest reason I'm skeptical of conspiracies, honestly.
That's not how these things work - Intelligence agencies use cover companies very differently. They simply provide a few people money to create a company. These people set up a VPN company - and run it like it's legitimate.
Marketing or legal won't know that their company is actually a listening post, most Datacenter employees won't know, only very few people(mostly network engineers and IT security, some managers)would know. And of course the Auditors - which is not a hassle for any decent intelligence agency.
It's far easier than one would think - how do we know that? Because it would be the same way other intelligence service companies are run like that for decades.
Oh what a novel idea
Now, is it possible that the NSA has an undisclosed financial stake in one or more VPNs and has secretly inserted a backdoor? Sure, anything is possible. But is that more likely than [...]
Sure, it what’s your threat model?
Even assuming a VPN is a government surveillance device …
Look up parallel reconstruction
Besides that things can also simply be used to blackmail people - that can start very low level.
"Now Mr. Smith, you looked at gay porn on Saturday? Well, we don't judge,but your wife sure would. Maybe you could tell us some gossip from Defence corp? Oh now that you did that - did you know that this is treason? We don't judge, but a judge would. Maybe plant that device in your boss's office?"
Besides that things can also simply be used to blackmail people - that can start very low level.
"Now Mr. Smith, you looked at gay porn on Saturday? Well, we don't judge,but your wife sure would. Maybe you could tell us some gossip from Defence corp? Oh now that you did that - did you know that this is treason? We don't judge, but a judge would. Maybe plant that device in your boss's office?"
Besides that things can also simply be used to blackmail people - that can start very low level.
"Now Mr. Smith, you looked at gay porn on Saturday? Well, we don't judge,but your wife sure would. Maybe you could tell us some gossip from Defence corp? Oh now that you did that - did you know that this is treason? We don't judge, but a judge would. Maybe plant that device in your boss's office?"
VPNs provides limited privacy and some security. For example, your traffic might be correlated to the traffic exiting at you VPN provider if enough netflow data is collected. Theoretically data from your ISP and your VPNs ISP would be enough. Today, countries and their agencies are probably collecting/trading enough netflow data for this purpose.
As a rule of thumb; since companies these days are very keen on getting in to the data trading market; you can safely assume that most of them has access, if it is legal.
For commercial offerings this is probably true for at least some of them, but creating your own VPN isn't terribly difficult if you are serious about your privacy. I typically just use them when I travel to countries like China where I can't get to a bunch of necessary services, so I don't mind if they route my YouTube traffic through CIA headquarters, but if I was doing anything more than that I would just set up my own.
Part of the point of a VPN is there's not a dedicated IP tied to you (or at least tying all of your activity together). That doesn't provide any benefit besides a corporate/government firewall bypass unless a mass of people are using your server.
But then you don’t get the benefit of having increased privacy due to lots of people using the same IP.
Linka? Long shot, but message me if it's you.
Which vpn have you found to work in china? Nord used to but doesn't any more
I almost never trust any site that advertises any kind of VPN service (it's always ranked by the best paying referrals) but this mirrors what I've seen in discussions.
From https://www.cloudwards.net/best-vpn-services-for-china/
Preferred VPN Choice: The general consensus among VPN users in China is that Astrill VPN is the most reliable option. However, it’s an incredibly expensive VPN, so it’s worth trying other cheaper options first. Surfshark is our top choice for best VPN for China as it has a solid reputation for working in the country while also offering affordable plans.
Alternative VPN Options: Other good options for China include CyberGhost, Proton VPN, Widscribe and Mullvad. NordVPN is also an option, but it’s not as reliable in China as the other six, so we only recommend it if you already have an account.
Censorship Evasion Strategy: Since VPNs are in a running battle with censorship, we recommend subscribing to multiple VPNs to ensure you have coverage at all times. No matter which VPNs you use, make sure you download them before going to China, as the download pages are often blocked.
Astrill is the only consistent one and I have to server hop at times.
No problem, just use a VPN to connect to it from another country! Wait.....
Less and less vpn and vps companies provide services for mainland citizen. The main reason I heard of is when their server got blocked by the great firewall, those customers would immediately perform chargeback to get their money back even though it's not the fault of the providers. You lose money on chargeback fees which means accepting mainland customers is very risky for them.
Could you use outline servers?
What homespun protocols you using from China? The regular ones like OpenVPN get blocked yeah.
There are a ton of obfuscating protocols that a VPN can run. obfs is one of the most popular. You can configure your VPN to appear as basically any traffic. HTTPS, DNS, QUIK.
VPN companies actually use user created genuine traffic to hide bots and web crawlers and scrapers. That's part of why their VPN's are that cheap, they use your traffic to hide more expensive to buy bot traffic.
Only one I'd trust is mullvad
Yup.
You know it's good because nowhere in the internet believes you're not a bot.
Which means all the bad actors use em.
I like how you can pay in cash. And how you're account info basically is a wink and a nod.
Proton seems to be pretty good too.
Besides that the claimed "Swiss privacy" is non existent - the Swiss NDB (their intelligence service) has far more rights than most other European agencies - especially against foreigners and still Swiss intelligence History is riddled with scandals - from a system of spy-filed on their own citizens in the 80ies that was on the level of the GDRs Stasi to a recent scandal (January24) that showed that basically all traffic in and out of Switzerland and most within Switzerland is monitored and that the NDB has used its enormous rights very extensively.
Additionally there is a second NSA like agency as well-so while I like Proton as a product I wouldn't give a shit on their privacy claims.
I believe protonvpn is no log. I hope they make their servers ram only like mullvad eventually though, it would be a great improvement.
Is mullvad good? Are they no log?
Mullvad is the most private a VPN company can get. They literally accept cash by mail.
Mullvad is RAM only for a few months by now, no log since forever and regularly contributes to privacy related topics.
The thing is: you can't trust a company when they say they are no log or RAM only. But you can trust what info you give them. Mullvad only has my IPs. No info about who I am otherwise. I send them 30€ twice a year and that's it.
BUT: they don't allow port forwarding anymore, if you need that, so they are not perfect.
Very. They're probably the best out there. Fully anonymous payments, no log, ram disk servers, audited, I believe they're open source. I think some downsides they have that I've heard is no port forwarding and they don't have too many servers. However, they're still very good nonetheless.
Either you give your browsing details to the VPN provider or someone else. It’s never really private. I just have a VPN back to my home network. My ISP sees all my porn surfing and I don’t really give a fuck.
This is the prime schizo theory about TOR, but realistically they would need to own every exit node to get you.
I have a pet theory that the CIA has ocilated between both protecting TOR and trying to compromise it depending on the leadership at the moment, because it's a genuinely useful tool for their needs but also at the same time it undermines some of their goals if people they wouldn't want using it start using it
Of course, besides the people who fall for the basic "VPN are some magic security device" most people (in particular those that know what they're getting) always looks for the same thing "which one can I actually trust".
Even if it's not government owned you have no idea whose keeping logs, sharing data etc.
So you can really only base your trust on whether the company has come up to any issues with the government and have refused, or has run for a number of years and provide a positive track record. With the changing of laws and how companies work, you also need to regularly check that your they stay respecting privacy and security.
For what it's worth, a VPN company worth is if it private, security and stands up to scrutiny. The moment trust is lost, the company is meaningless. So that's something for those that are long lasting.
Not the ones with numbered accounts that accept crypto...
Nothing says legit like taking anonymous money.
This but unironically. Accepts monero and cash? Worth a look.
Anonymous money that famously advertised its ability to be tracked, no less.
All? No. But some? I'd be more surprised if I found out none were.
No, bc gvts are themselves owned by companies.
Yeah but would they show their hand by coming down heavy on the average pirate or petty law breaker? If they did have ways to track all VPN traffic they wouldn't want us to know about it.
Who is gonna listen to the RIAA and MIAA?
Comcast or the CIA?
I'll take my chances. 🏴☠️
Well I didn't until now.
No, not really. Governments generally aren't that competent that it would be viable as a solution. Especially since there are legitimate uses for VPNs that aren't related to VPN providers, such as the ones that businesses use for people travelling, or working from home.
Although I could see the ones that do tracking putting a slightly higher priority on VPN traffic, just because it stands out more, where non-VPN traffic might be more likely to blend into the noise, since it matches more with how regular users use it.
all it's exaggerated but they are outside yes....
All corporations are owned and funded by governments. A corporation must be incorporated somewhere by some government. These corporations benefit from services, grants, and special benefits (e.g. limited liability) provided by that government.
However, I don't think governments are using this to do mass surveillance on people with VPNs, if only for the reason that there's not much to be gained by such an action. Most privacy invasion is of the kind people freely allow. Using a VPN doesn't make logging into Google meaningfully more private. The only groups I can think of that would really want to be able to spy on VPN users would be the MPAA, RIAA, etc, and I don't think they have the kind of sway to get governments to do that.
But yeah, if you are doing something a three letter government agency will target you over, a VPN ain't going to cut it.
Incorporation and ownership/funding are very different things. How are they all “owned and funded by governments”?
They are owned by governments in the sense that they exist at the pleasure of the governments they depend wholly upon. Corporations are legal entities; who administers the law? To use a tech analogy, I'm pointing out that though a file has an "owner", which is a user account, the true owner is the operating system itself.
I have to admit I'm surprised this is as controversial a take as it is.