11mo ago

Electric cars will be cheaper to make than gas vehicles but with much higher repair and insurance costs

www.notebookcheck.net Electric cars will be cheaper to make than gas vehicles but with much higher repair and insurance costs

The maintenance cost and future price advantages of electric vehicles before gas-powered cars could be more than offset by their rising insurance premiums. Repairability has to be baked into the EV production cake now.

Technology @lemmy.zip

Lee Duna @lemmy.nz

11mo ago

Electric cars will be cheaper to make than gas vehicles but with much higher repair and insurance costs

www.notebookcheck.net /Electric-cars-will-be-cheaper-to-make-than-gas-vehicles-but-with-much-higher-repair-and-insurance-costs.812031.0.html

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They should be cheaper to repair since there are less parts. The added costs are related to design decisions.
When things are welded together instead of paneled, it’s more expensive. When battery packs have to be replaced in their entirety instead of individual packs or cells, it’s more expensive. Etc. Etc.
- Exactly. Example: on the Tesla Model 3, many of the panels (such as the rear quarter panel) are glued on instead of bolted/clipped on. So if you graze a stationary object and damage that (it happens), you're on the hook for a very expensive repair since you need a repair shop that specializes in how to deal with that (plus the actual time to do the repair, which is more complicated). Update the designs to make them more repair friendly and the cost of ownership comes way down.
  
  What car has removable rear quarters? I can't think of any that aren't welded on to the C-pillar/roof/trunk.
  
  This is literally every single car on the road
- Surely you don't mean to imply built-in obsolescence, do you?

Just because Tesla made a lot of bad choices, that doesn't mean all EVs for all time will always be more expensive.

This is what happens when you can DRM every piece of the car. Tesla is being taken as a model, and it's extremely anti consumer
- I don't think theyre being used as an example at all. A lot of these first generation platforms are still just trying to figure stuff out, and unless they all glob onto an existing platform, they'll never deviate from one another. Competition is good, especially to drive innovation in the early days of new fields of products like these. Most of the bigger companies have opened their platforms or pieces thereof, but that doesn't need to mean open-source. We should rely on legislature and right to repair to reign some of the anti-competitive bullshit they all pull in though, I do agree with that.
  
  Sorry but there just isn't that much to figure out. Cars have had electric motors and batteries for as long as cars have had motors (literally - early cars didn't have a combustion engine).
  You take an ordinary car, bolt a big ass motor and battery to it somewhere, and you're done. Nothing innovative needs to happen and there should be no repairability compromises. If anything they should be easier to repair.
  Tesla's obsession with complex body parts is inexcusable. I used to work in the car crash insurance industry - we put Tesla in the same category as Bugatti/McLaren/etc. They're that expensive to repair... and unlike those supercars, nobody is going to be willing to spend the money get a Model 3 back to show room condition.
  Get yourself in a minor fender bender like the one below and your insurance company is going to buy you a new car (the owner of this car was given a $45,000 repair quote):
  With a conventional car, those panels would have likely been plastic (cheap to replace) or else metal but simple designs that can be bent back into shape by someone who knows how to use a panel beating hammer. What you don't see on the photo is all the weld joints that have been stressed and failed on the Tesla. It can potentially be months of work to get that car fixed and the insurance company doesn't want to provide a hire car for all that time - so they just pay out the value of the car and leave you to buy a new one.

I’ll probably buy an electric car one day, but I’ll be paying a lot of attention to its repairability. We have to make sure brands understand that « programmed obsolescence » isn’t accepted by everyone!
- Lawmakers should fix that. Nothing a consumer can do here. If you know up front you can avoid a brand, but with the OTA updates and stuff they can just pull a bait and switch.
  
  This consumer will be doing his part by not buying any car made after 2018
- You might want to take a look at Aptera. If we're lucky they'll sell their first cars in 1-5 years
  
  Why do you think Aptera will be better on this issue? I was very disappointed by the decision not to paint their vehicles. It’s hard to see how that won’t lead to a substandard product.
  
  I hadn't heard of them, but looking it up it seems like tech startup garbage. You don't need to re-invent the car. It looks like they made a silly design just to stand out. It also sacrafices a lot for that design. It's a two seater with very little storage room and probably not great for taller people like me. It also seems to have very little space for crumple-zones, so I'm curious as to how safe it is in an accident.
- They listen and say "We hear you but the data shows you much rather have the Witcher 3 running on your dashboard and webcam more easily monetize this."

The title is misleading, because nothing stops ICE car manufacturers from adopting the same unicast build bodies of those cars, and then EV will still be more expensive to make but with similar repair and lower maintenance cost.
But I really hope that common sense will prevail, even though I am doubtful.

Time to standardize connectors, control panels, battery sizes, motors etc.

Unfortunately used EVs are still decades away from being viable since after 10 years you hit the point you most likely start needing to replace the battery. You aren't buying used if you need to invest more in replacement parts than the car itself.
I'm fine with that though, we need vehicles on rails instead. 80% of all microplastic are from tires.
- Batteries don’t suddenly die, but lose capacity over time. I believe batteries are already demonstrating 80+% capacity after ten years, and they should only get better as technology improves.
  LFP batteries used in lower end models, such as Tesla Model 3/Y Standard, are expected to hold capacity after many more charge cycles
- Replacing EV batteries is very rare, even in older or very used EV's
  https://youtu.be/DL8ot9JqS78?si=E4fCyBE3p2sdwFmM
  
  They don't seem to mention how fast batteries actually degrade, how old those vehicles are, what climate conditions they are used or how many charging cycles are on those. It's all well and good if the 15000 cars have a low amount of battery replacements but without knowing the conditions it's kinda useless.
  Like where I am the temperature goes from -20C to +30C pretty much every year and in those conditions the makers rate the lifespan from 8 - 12 years.
  
  Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
  https://piped.video/DL8ot9JqS78?si=E4fCyBE3p2sdwFmM
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
- Tire runoff is nasty. There’s recently been salmon die off in the NW from a preservative chemical in tires.

I wonder if this kind of thing might make conversions into older cars more viable. If the body and the million computers etc will cost heaps to fix in a newish EV, that might mean an increased supply of electric drivetrains at the wreckers. They're not exactly a drop-in proposition but having the parts available has to be a good start.

They will never be cheaper. Just the costs of the battery, or they do shady bussiness tricks, like hooking you in cheap initial costs but horeandus repair/replacement bills.
- An electric motor is SIGNIFICANTLY more simple to produce than an entire internal combustion engine. There are far fewer moving parts on an electric car than a gasoline one.
  The battery is a significant cost, but not all cars need to have 300 miles of range. It is also possible that once the market is saturated (i.e. - several decades), that recycled battery packs will be cheaper to produce than batteries built from raw materials.
  The major reason why electric cars are so expensive right now is because there are far fewer of them, and the ones that are being made have a target market of an upper-middle class household. They're luxury/status symbols as much as anything else. Secondarily, there isn't a large used electric car market yet.
  There is a large potential for cost reductions. Assuming technology continues to improve, electric cars will drop below the price of gas and diesel for everyday driving. Internal combustion engines will most likely be reduced to specialty vehicles.
  
  Also, as we realize that we don't need 400+ miles of range in a commuter car, cheaper battery chemistries make a lot of sense, despite their shorter range per kg or lb
  
  But the battery pack is far and away more expensive than the engine. Shit far and away more expensive than the engine AND transmission. Shit like half an EVs price is the battery.
- Yeah, I'm not really sure what the path to the EV being cheaper to produce is. Every EV we have seen is more expensive than its ICE counterpart. And it isn't like batteries are some new tech that manufacturers don't know how to make well. No, these are being mass produced.
  The higher repair costs come from the fact that while an EV pack is the single most expensive part of the car, and if it is damaged, you now have to replace the single most expensive part of the car.
  Higher insurance costs flow from the higher purchase cost and the higher repair costs. So, those won't come down either.
  Edit: One thing that could bring down repair costs would be if the EV manufacturers would stop making it so damn hard to swap in your own replacement parts. A battery and electric motor isn't complicated. But repairing either of these parts on an EV is complicated due to DRM and other anti-consumer design choices.
  
  Every new technology is initially more expensive, then as it moves into mass production the cost goes down because of economies of scale - more suppliers, innovations in technique.
  Battery costs have gone down an insane amount already, and it doesn't look like they're done.
  Going further, what percentage of accidents affect the battery pack? The article seems to conflate Tesla manufacturing techniques that make cosmetic repairs difficult with all electric vehicles - just because Tesla has long repairs doesn't mean all manufacturers do.
  It also talks about electric manufacturers going out of business, but is it 15% by number of businesses or by manufacturing volume? Lucid and Rivian aren't making that many cars in terms of absolute volume, but could go under. Hyundai, Kia, Chevy et al. make a lot more cars and seem unlikely to collapse.

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