Rant: My recent experience of trying to install windows for gaming and why I'm really thankful for Linux
Rant: My recent experience of trying to install windows for gaming and why I'm really thankful for Linux
I thought I'd chuck windows on my gaming laptop an Acer nitro 5 from last year, to see how it's going do some bits I can't on Linux VR, certain multiplayer games etc.
What a disaster! I've spent the whole day brute forcing drivers and generally dicking about trying to get my setup sorted.
Upon installation, Wi-Fi drivers don't exist, so you cannot use the internet while installing if you're on Wi-Fi. Mint's had this since what 2006? But that's cool, Cortana is here to chat away and not understand any requests. Once finally in the OS after 20 questions that could be considered harassment if it was a person, nothing was ready to go. Every single driver needed sourcing and installing.
People have the cheek to complain about Linux's Nvidia install, literally two clicks on most distros if it isn't already baked in. Go to website find driver, download click click click agree click wait more software click click wait.
Plug in my sound card OK it's a bit old now UA-25 but nothing happens...hmm find obscure video partially install a driver from Vista then cancel the installation program so you can side load a driver from 8,1 but wait there's more disable core isolation to allow the driver to work reboot into a now slightly more compromised OS.
OK plug in wheel again not new stuff G25 oh it works cool. Oh, no H-shifter OK download driver. "Can't find device, ensure it's plugged in". Windows decided it knew better, downloaded its own driver that blocks the official one and loads a steering wheel as a gamepad..GG cool cool.
I do not understand why we still have this image that Windows is noob friendly, it's such a convoluted obfuscated process to do anything. It does worse than nothing, it thinks it's smart enough to carry out tasks on the user behalf and just bork it.
All of these issues are because I don't have the new shiny things, but it really highlighted why I love Linux now if you'll excuse me I'm going to install a distro and play on my 20-year-old peripherals
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Wi-Fi drivers don't exist
They absolutely exist, but perhaps isn't part of the installer.
Every single driver needed sourcing and installing.
Windows Update solves 95% of that automatically these days, as long as you have internet it will sort it out for you.
Plug in my sound card OK it's a bit old now UA-25 but nothing happens.
This an external USB sound card from 2004, Roland has drivers for it working on Windows 98/ME/XP/2000/Vista/7/8/8.1 it is a 20 year old card, it awesome that it works on Linux, but you can't blame Roland or Microsoft for not supporting a 20 year old device on the latest versions of the OS.
OK plug in wheel again not new stuff G25 oh it works cool. Oh, no H-shifter OK download driver. "Can't find device, ensure it's plugged in". Windows decided it knew better, downloaded its own driver that blocks the official one and loads the steering wheel as a gamepad...GG cool cool.
You are whining about a modern OS not being compatible with a 18 year old steering wheel? You can't expect indefinite hardware support for every random little device you happen to find, this like the sound card above is on you, not Microsoft.
I do not understand why we still have this image that Windows is noob friendly.
None of the above quoted examples are noob issues, this is like you are talking to a person in old english from the mideval times and being mad that a random guy in the middle of Londing in 2024 can't understand you.
A noob would realize that their devices were too old and buy new devices.
Windows is noob friendly in that most software have a Windows version, most people use it, it is a known variable.
Like it or not, Windows is the defacto standard, and that means that is it safe in the perspective of a noob user.
I am saying all of this as an IT guy who has worked professionally with both Linux and Windows, I ran Linux as my main OS for a year or two, I LIKE Linux, but this is not fair critisism of Windows.
It’s concerning that you think “just buy new stuff” is reasonable and that Windows should only work on new hardware out of the box.
It's concerning that you insinuate that 20 year old hardware just works in Linux.
Just because a 20 year old sound card happens to work in your favorite Linux distro doesn't in any way mean that it will work forever or that there are drivers for all 20 year old soundcards.
Where does it say that it's not allowed to create a Windows driver for a 20 year old soundcard?
This is the reality of the computer industry, you don't have to like it, but you have to expect it and work within the reality of the industry.
If OP had complained about how their 10 or 5 year old devices didn't work, then they might have had a point, but 20 years old? That is unresonable.
Yes, the reality of the computer industry is that the industry changes. That has quite the dual meaning. I want it to mean it changes for the better...ahem....Open Source
If people want to use a working twenty year old device, it is completely reasonable to complain that Windows doesn't allow that - because that is where Linux STANDS ON ITS OWN MERITS
And still, it is usually possible to get the 20 y/o hardware to run in windows. It might need a bit of trickery but in essence, windows has changed so little under the hood, in the last 20 years…
Recently I acquired a 20 year old film scanner. I had the choice of either buying a new third party scanner software for 100€ or just get the old one working. I found some script that made the old driver identify as something newer and it installed without a problem and has been working since. (Or rather it has worked until recently, when I switched to linux anyways because I want to use the pc for gaming exclusively, since for work related stuff, I have a Mac)
I consider it more like OP was lucky that the devices worked on Linux, and then reality hit when he got on Windows.
I also consider it lucky but that's not the point. The point is that he has the right to complain about Windows. The point is also that he has the option to ask the Linux community to build a driver to make it work if it didn't work. The point is Microsoft does not give two shits about what OP wants because it has an extremely large share of the market. It no longer has to do good by its customer because it is no longer neccessary.
The point is... he can complain because he tried doing it with Windows and it didn't work. Your mileage may vary.
"Just buy new stuff" is the mindset of the perpetually boring and uncreative. Break shit and build better stuff.
You forget that he's an "IT guy that has worked with Linux and Windows professionally". Trust him, bro!
I am NOT going to post my business card or link my LinkedIn to win an internet argument, I have shown that OPs complaints are unresonable expectations, that was my goal.
You're sure allowed to think you did, and sure as hell I don't care about your alleged IT professional background. Just like you say that Windows is noob friendly, I say Windows is NOT friendly, period. The OP makes a great case on yet another reason why Windows is complete and utter crap, and I'm an IT guy that has worked with Linux and Windows professionally. I HATE Windows. I'm not sending my business card either, and I know better than to have a LinkedIn profile. That's hould be enough to tell us apart.
I have been in IT since the mid 90s and in my experience every OS can be a PITA to install. Both Windows and Linux will install smoothly if the drivers for your network, raid controller and mobo components are all supported. If not it is going to suck regardless of OS.
Windows reputation for noob friendliness, and linux's unfriendliness, is mostly down to familiarity and that most users will never have to install their own OS and deal with problems mentioned in the post. Most will never even think about it because they dont even know what an OS is or that it can be replaced. If Windows gets fucked up they take it to a pro to fix or buy a replacement.
You have, so far, made the most logical address on this subject, out of any of the others, including myself. I am very biased against Windows, for reasons that may be irrelevant, and I'm also very vocal about it, so if I offended anyone, know that is not my intention, although I regularly come across as if it is. Having said that, I'm removing myself from this thread moving forward, just because I dont want to be part of any discord with myself or anyone else. Everyone should use what works best for them, which is why I'll try to stay away from further "what is is best?" and similar discussions in the future, and will just keep to discussions that bring something positive or beneficial to the table. God bless you all guys, Jesus lives all of us, without exception. Enjoy.
Windows is noob friendly. If you do what noobs do and just buy an off the shelf PC and don’t think about stuff like drivers at all. Now, Linux isn’t much less noob friendly in those cases and just primarily suffers from lack of system integrators using it and, to a much lesser degree, from a lack of software.
Linkedin. How to tell me you're not linked in by telling me you're Linkedin.
Happy to see lemmy linux community not blindly hating windows and providing facts. Also you can use a package manager like choco to install apps from terminal so you dont have deal with clicking next.
Treating Windows unfairly in these kinds of comparisons is a disservice to Linux as it implies that Linux can't win in a fair comparison.
Windows/Linux/MacOS are all best at different things and for different persons, let the best OS for the task and person win on a fair test
If one values their software freedom then a fair test is not only how well it performs a task because having unjust power over your computing negates it as an option. If one don't value their software freedom then it's more imperative to talk about what's in their own best interests.
Linux (kernel) fails that test too as it includes proprietary binary blobs.
If one has the luxury of being able to manage with only free software, then I yeah, they should so their damndest to make sure to use free software.
Most people don't have that luxury (myself included) and for them Windows is fine.
However, if I need a server or need to test something, I will allways spin up a Linux machine first.
Treating Windows unfairly? Blindly hating Windows? Microsoft is a corporation designed to MAKE DOLLAZ SON. They aren't your unfairly treated friend who wants to make sure you have an amazing gaming experience. They are part of a corporate duopoly. Meaning...dun dun dun - One of two shite options. I don't include Linux in this because it is the exact opposite of this market dominance. It is a free market of choice - which you can choose to better by contributing code, monetarily, or promotional support.
Windows is actively user hostile, actively contributing to planned obsolecence, and overall an ad infested spyware pile of bloated inefficient garbage.
As an IT Professional you should have first hand experience of the waste that comes from technological churn.
Linux standing alone on it own merits... Yeah right. Linux standing up against hundreds of millions of dollars spent in PR, Advertising, and the business practice of embrace, extend, and extinguish. You want better shit? Be a part of a community instead of brainlessly buying a solution.
OP - I salute you and your 20 year old peripherals. At least you are creatively making something you have work rather than buying shit that causes more problems.
I will happily shill for the Linux project and any other open source project - for volunteers trying to make something they want to use.
Microsoft is a corporation designed to MAKE DOLLAZ SON
Yeah? Most companies are designed to make money, is it wrong to want to earn money?
Oh and I am not your son, please don't refer to me as such.
OP - I salute you and your 20 year old peripherals. At least you are creatively making something you have work rather than buying shit that causes more problems.
To me it sounds like OP had the stuff working on Linux and decided to try Windows, then when some random 20 year old device didn't work decided to bash Windows to hell and back.
This is like the bicycle meme where OP is biking fine, stops, puts a Windows pipe in the spokes and blames Windows for his issues when he falls over.
This is not being creative to find a way to keep using his devices, they were working, this is not being creative to find a way to do what he wanted to do on Linux, this is going back to the standard recipie with 20 year old ingerdients and expecting to make a beautiful and tasty cake and complaining when it tastes like rot.
OK bro. Just adding some friendly banter to a very serious topic.
Dude. The old "is it wrong to make money argument?" No. I'm stating it is DESIGNED to make money in a way that is making the actual product shittier and shittier (insert tired Cory Doctorow quote here) to the consumer.
Sigh...As stated below... The point is that he has the right to complain about Windows. The point is also that he has the option to ask the Linux community to build a driver to make it work if it didn’t work. The point is Microsoft does not give two shits about what OP wants because it has an extremely large share of the market. It no longer has to do good by its customer because it is no longer neccessary.
The point is… he can complain because he tried doing it with Windows and it didn’t work.
Yes, it is creative as is your tasty cake rot analogy. I will upvote that even though I disagree
The bike analogy is weak tho.
Just add... he got back on bike (the one with the 20 year old handlebars that he loved) after he fixed everything and learned not to stick Windows in his spokes.
I thought the bike analogy was quite apt, but I can accept that OP didn't actively know about the issues he would see untill he got started with Windows, so I can accept your argument here
@stoy oh the joy of bias. Some random device does not work in linux? Linux is shit.
Some random device does not work in Windows? It's user's faultEh, I see it more like this:
20 year old device doesn't work in Windows/Linux: "Oh, well time to get a new one anyway."
20 year old device works with Windows/Linux: "Sweet!"
OP took it too far when it didn't work
I stopped reading when you become condescending and called him son.
Get over yourself.
Yeah, you are probably right. I apologize. The tone was meant to add to the point not make it unreadable. I stand by the points I was trying to make but I agree the tone is off putting to some.
Most of the people don't think about capitalism when they turn on their pc and start a game. They just play their favourite games like cod and have fun. And windows just works. I use windows 11 and I don't see ads on my pc.
You are a power user yourself, of course you dont see ads. But most of the people will see ones because they aren't power users.
Yes that is true. But all i did was uninstall one drive and other microsoft apps i dont use from my pc, i didn't do any reg edits or terminal commands.
Do you think regular people uninstall apps they do not need?
Specially Microsoft apps, you know you can uninstall them, most people won't remove them by fear of breaking Windows, thinking theses apps are here for a good reason...
Apps that will break doesn't provide a uninstall option to begin with. For example edge.
It's not the point.
People see an app marked as Microsoft, they are using Windows by Microsoft so they assume the app is part of the system. Therefore they won't even guess they can uninstall the app to begin with.
I would also prefer not to think about capitalism when shooting people in COD (the irony). No one has to think about capitalism but we all feel the effects of capitalism. Were you on Reddit? Why have you migrated to Lemmy? Does this make you think more about the effects of capitalism? I can agree that we all just want to escape into gaming but these things are there whether we choose to look or not. We chose Lemmy so that doing something.
Linux and jellyfin community is very active in lemmy. Not everyone use lemmy as a reddit alternative. I continue to use reddit.
Sorry, I just assumed you migrated. Yeah, communities that are built for the members are great. Reddit was once like that for sure. Maybe a better example would be - where did you migrate from before Jellyfin? Why choose Jellyfin over Netflix or another subscription service? Has capitalism provided a better service that is designed to benefit the user in those cases?
I am from india. Our film industry is huge, the amount of local movies and tv shows is very hard to manage and watch through multiple streaming services (and this is not including the already popular netflix, prime, disney). I also watch foreign movies and tv shows. It is not that i can't afford, it is the ease of use. I use gamepass and steam and those are all part of capitalism.
It is not that i can’t afford, it is the ease of use.
That was my point exactly. I agree with you.
Ridicolous. You act like this is the first person to realise Windows is jank. How many USB steering wheels have you bought during your lifetime?
None, I was gifted a Sidewinder Forcefeedback steering wheel by my dad when I was 8-9 something, but it used the old gameport.
I don't see how this is relevant though....
you can't blame Roland or Microsoft for not supporting a 20 year old device on the latest versions of the OS.
Why not?
You can't expect indefinite hardware support for every random little device you happen to find, this like the sound card above is on you, not Microsoft.
Why not? Linux development is mostly volunteer, and these things are easily compatible with Linux. It seems like you can absolutely expect support for every device, it's just that Microsoft isn't willing to provide it.
None of the above quoted examples are noob issues, this is like you are talking to a person in old english from the mideval times and being mad that a random guy in the middle of Londing in 2024 can't understand you.
Notice that you had to exaggerate a 20 year timespan into a 500 year timespan to make this analogy work?
Why not?
Because it is a paid OS and it's developers are writing code for financial gain, if they are not being paid to write the code, it doesn't get written.
Voulenteers write the code because they want or need to, if there are no drivers for a device in on Linux, you need to write it yourself.
Notice that you had to exaggarate a 20 year timespan into a 500 year timespan to make thisnanalogy work?
Yes, that was deliberate. Have you ever noticed how much faster technology develops compared to languages? That is why the analogy works.
The analogy doesn't even work if we ignore the massive difference in time scale. Languages develop organically, they are not managed. Comparing a managed and developed system and a twenty year timespan to an organic language system over a five hundred year timespan is just ridiculous.
Because it is a paid OS and it's developers are writing code for financial gain, if they are not being paid to write the code, it doesn't get written.
They are being paid to write the code. Microsoft is just choosing which code they should write, and it doesn't include any old devices because they want you to buy new devices.
It's perfectly reasonable to expect compatibility, and lay blame when there isn't any. Microsoft simply doesn't provide it.
I disagree with you, but don't have the energy to keep arguing, this argument has been going on for days, and I made my point back on day one.
Because it is a paid OS and it's developers are writing code for financial gain,
No shit. But that only explains why Windows is bad. It doesn't mean that Windows isn't bad. We shouldn't give Windows pity points just because poor Billy Gates is addicted to money.
You should expect the creator to abandon the device eventually but indefinite hardware support is possible - that's why it's important that drivers be open source. If enough people care to use the device then a community can be created around it to support it on whatever OS they want.
Windows is still fucking ass though and it's so bad that I can not respect the opinion of someone that claims they are an IT professional and don't main Linux. Like what? And what does that even mean, that's ridiculously broad, what do you do? I'm a network engineer and sysadmin.
Linux is objectively superior to Windows in almost every way. It has vastly superior workflows. It's more customizable. It's insanely more efficient. It's more secure. I feel like I'm wading through 3ft of shit anytime I boot into Windows. Not to mention the ability to actually have ownership of your computer. And that's just talking about the ways Linux is better. That's not getting into why Windows is ass like... telemetry data and ads in the OS and configs reverting from updates and the dumbass way software is installed on it and how shit docker runs in it and I can go on and on. The workflows of Windows are actual dog ass and literally every single popular Linux DE has better workflows and customization.
If you in IT and use Windows for anything other than a gaming machine or something like Photoshop, then I don't want you anywhere near my tech.
lol.
I'm going to have to place you under arrest, you just fucking murdered that guy. Down to the slammer with you.
That guy had allready made up his mind about me and wasn't interested in anything but self validation. With his ridiculous criteria for people being IT technicians needing to run Linux on their main machine combined with his insulting attitude there was just no reason to discuss anything with him.
"Don't argue with idiots, they just drag you down to their level and beat you to death with experience"
old english from the mideval times
That would be Middle English. This is Old English.
Thank you for correcting me (:
Lol you're welcome. We all have those things that bother us more than they reasonably should. That's one of mine.