9mo ago

Why I ditched Gmail for Proton Mail

www.androidpolice.com Why I ditched Gmail for Proton Mail

My Gmail just turned 20 years old, AITA for kicking it out and moving in with Proton Mail?

106 comments

For anyone using a custom domain, or thinking about it, read this: https://dmarcly.com/blog/how-to-implement-dmarc-dkim-spf-to-stop-email-spoofing-phishing-the-definitive-guide
Without these records you're a lot more likely to go to spam, or get rejected outright. If you have questions about it, ask here or DM me and I'll be glad to help.
- Recently I added a custom domain to my protonmail account and during the procedure it makes you do this steps (adding SPD, DKIM and DMARC) to pass all the steps. They tell you exactly what records you have to add, where to add them and what the content should be. These guys are great
  
  Yep, setup mine about a year ago now, since I'm trying to get rid of Google completely, and it walks you through all of this. It was really well done setup.
  
  Same with Tuta, which I did last weekend. Still evaluating the service for now before telling everyone to switch to my new custom domain (I'm forwarding everything from my old domain for now).
- Doing the lords work
- All domains you purchase through cloudflare have a fancy button on the gui to add dmarc and dkim that just say “reject” so people can’t pretend to email from your domain, pretty neat feature imo. (Not actually useful if you are trying to use it as a custom email domain though, lol)
- This is very helpful, thank you.
- Protonmail basically forced you trough this when adding a domain no?
  
  Yes
- My email provider (Migadu) gave me all the DNS entries I needed when I signed up my domain to them.
  
  I think they all do?
  I don't really understand the need for a guide TBH. If you can set your mx then you can do the rest, and your provider will tell you if it's not done.

I always worry that it will get bought out by some asshole company and we'll be even worse off than with Google (if that's even possible).
- Hi, this is Andy here, the Founder/CEO of Proton. As former scientists, we don't do what we're doing to make the most money (otherwise we wouldn't have picked science as a profession). There's no price which we would sell Proton to Google or Facebook. We also don't need to because thanks to the strong support of the community, Proton has the resources to thrive and grow as an independent organization. Safeguarding this independence is how we ensure that over the long term, we can always put user interest above all else.
  -Protonmail Founder, 2 years ago, for what it's worth.
  
  Google's motto used to be "don't be evil"
  Companies can change.
  
  Trust, but verify.
  I want to see some assurance. I don't know Switzerland's laws, but if there's a concept of a "social purpose company" or something with actual legal teeth, that would make me a bit more comfortable.
  They're certainly better than Google, and I like that their products are audited, but words from their founder don't need much, especially if the founder decides to leave.
- That’s the benefit of a custom domain, I suppose; you can always change he provider without changing your email.
  
  Yup, I just signed up for Tuta with a custom domain. If they start sucking, I'll move to Proton or something else.
  
  Problem is with the way email security is going now, it's entirely possible in a few years, if your domain/provider isn't an established one, it will get blocked by others.
  I've had a few domain just straight up block some Tutamail emails.
  But here's the other issue: Proton and Tutanota are both not going to make it easy on you to move your mail.
  
  You can switch MX records but not necessarily your mail storage. You need IMAP for that, and IMAP with Proton currently requires jumping through some hoops and it may be discontinued in the near future.
  They've never given any guarantees regarding IMAP and they actually seem to consider it a negative so that remains a dubious point with me.
- It’s unlikely but not impossible. I’ve been using PM with a custom domain for about five years now, and never thought too hard about leaving.
  In an ideal world, a company like ProtonMail would be cooperatively owned by the workers and paying users, sort of like a credit union.
  Pragmatically, they’ve done fine stewardship of the service for the last decade or so they’ve been around. A big part of it is that their value proposition depends on stability and trust. But it could be better.

Obligatory video from one of the greatest channels youtube has ever seen: By Default - There is no private email
- Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
  https://piped.video/iH626CXyNtE
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
- Has really everyone fogotten that you can use tools like GPG? What fucked up timeline is this?
  
  Honest question: how many email-havers do you think know what GPG is?
  
  GPG has a chicken and egg problem. I have mine publicized on Ubuntu’s key server, which is likely one of the bigger ones (but iirc it is of little relevance as it syncs with other keyservers). Out of the emails I am sent only one of my contacts bothers with encryption. Which is sad, but what can you do? The web mail interfaces rarely if ever support GPG, and even if they do sharing your key with them defeats the purpose.
- His notes video is also fantastic! I really wish he made some more videos.
  Also would be interesting to see his take after skiff got bought by notion

I value my privacy and have an extra $7 to blow every month.
Bleep boop, this summary has saved you 99.9%… just kidding i’m not a bot and have no idea what the article says ;-)
- You're pretty close, the thing you missed is, "Google is creepy."
  
  Everyone’s creepy uncle… to creep to fail… this wants to be a Weinstein joke, but not today :-(

I think it is important to understand that email never will be very secure because the standard wasn't made with modern threat models in mind, if you want to communicate privately and anonymously, you need modern protocols like signal, i also use proton but only because I hate Google, i don't expect my emails are any more private than they have ever been. I use email only when it is required, I use signal for private communication, overlap is impossible
- Your emails are.more private in the same sense that if you have a letter with something on it, turning it over means someone can't read it over your shoulder, but they could have read it before it got to you.
  Google has access to the contents of your inbox, Proton mail does not. But the protocols are unchanged and unencrypted email is accessible in transit.
  So moving to Proton is a definite improvement, particularly as email remains a basic means of communication. But as you say if you wand secure communication then it is very flawed.
  
  But you can get secure email if you're the sender (you can choose to encrypt) or it's coming from someone else at Proton.
  But yeah, there should be a secure alternative, perhaps an amendment to SMTP where only the "to" address is available. If I have the public key of the receiver (negotiation of that could be part of the protocol), I can encrypt everything else and my email could still be routed properly.
- It's useful to minimize data leaks too, since (especially when combined with simple login etc) you can avoid giving out your real address ever.

I recently migrated my email hosting away from proton. I paid for unlimited for almost a year, but I just couldn't take the missing features anymore. Maybe some of the missing features can be justified by security reasons, but some is just laughable.
If you want to use a proper email client, you need to host proton bridge in your local computer. You can only host imap and SMTP on localhost. Headless is not really supported, so good luck if you want your server to email you logs. Use VMs or docker containers? Fuck you.
On android, the only option is using their crappy mail client. For example, this client has not functionality to select all Mail from a folder if you want to archive it or mark as read. You have to select every single Mail one at a time.
Proton drive can only be used over the Webinterface or with some windows (gui) client. No automating your backups to be pushed there.
I switched to mailbox.org, which has weird 2fa but besides that makes my happy by just working with the damn standards. Not like email transfer is unencrypted when using STARTLS. Security is important, but for me personally, usuability has to be at least good enough.
- Agreed. I switched to tuta, which doesn't depend on google play services on android, and is on fdroid.
  I also switched cause protonvpn doesn't have ipv6, and on linux requires networkmanager (i use iwd), and you can't use wireguard without downloading files and configuring wireguard yourself. Mullvad has been much better

I have been exploring self hosting my email.
Docker mail server for backend. Roundcube for web ui
Still keeping accounts at mainstream providers though as backup, especially for outgoing mail.
- You can just use a custom domain at Tuta, Proton, or any of the other email providers until you decide to self-host. Honestly, I don't think self-hosting is worth it, I value the spam filtering and uptime that major providers offer.
  
  What happens when you self host email but your home is offline just as someone tries to send you an email?
  Will their mail bounce? Vanish?
- Register a domain, Postfix, spamassassin, freebsd jails... Do it like we did in the early 2000s, it never got better
- Don’t.
  Not only is it not worth the hassle most home ISPs block port 25 to avoid compromised computers sending out spam.
- Friends don't let friends selfhost email.

Moving email seems like such a PITA, I don't think I would move unless to self hosting.
- Self hosting email is even more of a pain.
  
  Good lord yes
  
  Assuredly.
- Move it to a custom domain and host it at Proton or Tuta. That way it's a pain once, and then you don't have to switch email addresses ever again.
  
  Smart.
  
  Unless those companies get bought out down the road and trashed, and you need to move to a new one.
- Yes, a royal pain in the ass. However. I did it recently but the way I did it means any future moves, of all my 300+ websites that I have logins for, is now done in seconds.
  I signed up for SimpleLogin and a custom domain. I then went around creating aliases for all these sites. Changing the sites is indeed the worst part. Still, this is the last time I will ever do it. All my aliases were pointing to my Gmail account. Once I'd finished I settled on Proton. I just moved all my aliases to my Proton email address.
  No one knows my Proton email address other than SimpleLogin.
  I haven't yet, but I can now ditch Gmail. I still keep the account for a number of reasons but none are for emails.
  I've also been testing Tutamail. I can get aliases to go to multiple mailboxes. I have the ability to respond to the emails from either Tuta or Proton and the recipient is none the wiser of where my mailbox resides.
  
  I'll keep this all in mind. Thank you.
- It certainly can be a bit involved. When I moved from Gmail address to my own personal domain I did it slowly over a few months.
  I set my Gmail address to automatically forward to my new email address. Then I setup a quick filter which added a label on everything that had been forwarded. Once a week or so I would look at all the emails that had been forwarded and update them to my new email (or delete them if unwanted).
  
  Did the same thing. Took about a year... Just do one site at a time.
- My only criteria when switching email was to be able to use my own domain name. Now I almost don't receive anything on my gmail and I can transparently switch provider. I think it was a relevant move, I won't move to self hosting but I could ! :)

Some services don't send verification letters to Proton and it's site banned by the address in fucked-up authoritarian countries, both for having less control over what it is and easy registration. I want them to explore some multi-site hydra approach so they can't get put out of the game that easily. Moving your emails here means you can't rely on a hope it would work tomorrow.

Didn’t know google did shady things with our mail, but yea I shouldn’t be surprised
- Welcome to Earth
  
  I guess OP is an alien.

I was looking at it too but went for https://mxroute.com/ because they offer a very minimalistic plan without up selling.
I also found some vaucher where I paid $45 for three years with 10GB mail, unlimited domains and email addresses.
- Does mxroute support a multi-user setup, say one for each family member?
  I'm currently looking at switching to a new provider and haven't found the perfect replacement yet.
  
  Yes. With MXroute, you pay for storage and can create as many accounts, emails, aliases, etc. as you want.
  
  I'm not sure what you mean. I'm using it for my family but I'm setting up the Email addresses, so I don't think every family member can be admin, no.
  
  I recently migrated from fastmail to mxroute.
  Fastmail is amazing & beautiful but their pricing is just obnoxious now.
  mxroute is perfectly serviceable, if a little clunky, and a fraction of the cost.

Why does this whole article feel like an advertisement?
- Proton shilling on Lemmy is huge business. I have nothing to say one way or the other on the products but it really puts me off.
- Because Proton Mail is just THAT GOOD!

What do people think about paying for cloud storage with Proton? Is it safer than Dropbox?
- Just encrypt before upload and you don’t even need to worry about it.
  
  But Proton makes encryption the default and way easier and accessible for most people.
  
  For cold storage it makes sense, but I always consider UX - there's not enough solutions that make private key encryption, especially remote, as easy as opening a link or mounting to a directory.
  I've used s3ql before, and it's really nice for making the encryption transparent. Not something pre-encrypting before dropbox upload can provide.
  More, you wanna share those files via dropbox native tools? The recipient better have your private key or you need to reencrypt specifically for them.
  Mentioned tool: https://github.com/s3ql/s3ql

PROTON GANG!

I don't understand why anyone is using gmail as their main mail account. I really don't like the interface and using it with 3rd party apps like thunderbird, K9 mail or any other client just sucks
- How? I've never had any issues using gmail with Thunderbird on desktop or FairEmail on Android. By comparison, Proton mail I could get working in Thunderbird with Proton's mail bridge, but on Android I'd be stuck using their app.
  Until the entire email protocol changes there are basically just no truly good options.
  
  I just use posteo and that works with every client from everywhere. I was not saying "gmail sucks proton mail good". I don't use proton mail. But using gmail with their weird Folder structure I get notifications about new mail basically 3 times because it is in 3 folders at the same time... It works with their interface (and probably app) but with nothing else...
- Because they make an account 20 years ago and it's too much of a pita to change now
  Also it's probably the best email provider in the world, privacy aside

Id like to move to Proton, but goodness are there no good usernames left. I'd have to go the custom domain route which isn't awful but it's just more effort

At the end of the day. The main thing people should be aware of is that Cloud Storage is basically you keeping your data on someone else's computer so you must assume as a rule of thumb that that data is vulnerable even if it is allegedly encrypted.
Now Proton has its own share of controversies which make its advertising of Privacy less trustworthy, at least in my eyes. I won't go into details so feel free to do your own research, it will only take a couple web searches.
I personally also use Proton Mail for work but I always try to never communicate anything through it that I feel is risky in the context of my critical personal info.
Self Hosting is not the best solution when it comes to Mail Servers because of the whole domain trust issue yada yada as far as I am aware. (I don't have the resources or the money to self host so I am going through someone else's shared experience.) But it's definitely the most concrete solution for privacy.

106 comments