If you play ANY mobile-style, free-to-PAY game, you are helping to destroy gaming. That includes any exceptions you think exist.
I'm mainly talking about these new "but they're different" games, that have gotten so fucking popular, lately.
"Honky Stair Rail" and "Genshin Implants" or whatever the fuck they're called.
I don't care if you can play them without spending any money. I don't care if they're any good. None of that matters. The whole model of the game being funded by whales, spending money on in-game items and currency IS LITERALLY EVIL.
There is no way to do it ethically. That is an impossibility, on a fundamental level. There is no excuse for anyone to give these so-called developers and publishers ANY amount of money, attention, or engagement.
The only acceptable way to pay for a game as a service is a traditional MMO subscription, where you pay a flat rate per month/year to access 100 percent of a game's available gameplay.
I don't care what your excuse is. I don't care that you like anime tits and ass. I don't care if you think your chosen free-to-pay game is different. It's not.
Stop supporting this shit. Support real games.
A couple of years ago, I would have considered this to be a popular opinion, but about 35-40 percent of the internet posts I see in 2024 are related to either "Honky Stair Rail" or "Genshin Implants," and it's starting to freak me the fuck out.
My guy, you are the antithesis of your own username. If you wanna change minds you need to change your angle. Facts. Data. Not just “I’m right and you’re wrong, no I will not explain further.” All that’s gonna do is make people cling to their beliefs even stronger. So really, you’re making the problem worse without playing the games yourself. Congratulations.
I feel like this guy must have some mental health issues or a disorder, and they either haven't been diagnosed or they aren't being treated properly. He doesn't seem like a troll because he's putting way too much effort into it, but his behaviour's way too strange for a mentally stable, neurotypical person.
I understand you're passionate about this, but your post comes across as trolling. You don't mention why or by which mechanisms FTP actually damages the gaming industry. Could you provide some specifics to support your claims?
There is a lot I could say about this, but I am afraid that you have tested positive for terminal stupidity. I'm afraid there is no cure.
My condolences.
The good news, your lack of awareness protects you from experiencing your condition, so go and live your life to the fullest. Express your views on forums and in rooms full of people avoiding eye contact and looking for chances to walk away. They all love you. You are the smartest.
Try going to any college class room and tell any professor "when you're the correct one, you don't have to say shit. That's part of the privilege of being correct." I'm not sure that will end well for you.
I do agree with you basic premise that there is a problem in the gaming industry though.
To expand on that last point, the original MMO grind was also supposed to be fun and interesting, in and of itself. It wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but the original grind wasn't a roadblock in the way of progress. It WAS the progress.
As someone else very eloquently pointed out, the problem with the new mobile-style model is that "the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way."
That's exactly the center of the point that I'm making. That shit isn't fixable. There is no way for there to be a good or acceptable game that uses that model.
And I think that's why I've bristled so much, when people are like "uhh, could you cite some examples?"
Like I said in that other comment: that's like if I said "being hit in the hand with a sledgehammer causes injury" and people were like "hmmm, could you supply some evidence for this claim?"
Saying "fuck off" to that request isn't ME being intellectually dishonest. It's THEM being trollish for even asking some shit like that. It's some Elon Musk level shit.
Mobile-style free-to-pay monetization models are simply harmful. Period. Exactly like a sledgehammer to the knuckles.
Some people might be legit masochists and like being whacked on the hands with hammers, but that doesn't change the basic facts.
Out of curiosity would you include Guild Wars 2 into a good or bad system?
You pay for the game. You get the full game. When they bring out a expansion you pay for the expansion.
You can buy in game stuff but it’s cosmetic only (different skins for armor or weapons but no improved stats). You don’t need to buy anything. You can pay the full game. Just curious what your thoughts are on that type of game.
I have to admit that some of the pseudo-traditional MMO games actually do fall into a gray area. Especially if they're part of a series that used to run on a fully traditional MMO model, but couldn't be sustained any longer. It's better for those specific games to be supported in a different way, rather than just die off.
It's these "hey sailor, buy some currency...and/or a .png of an anime titty girl that you can use to fight other .png files of anime titty girls UNLESS YOU WANT TO GRIND FOREVER" abominations that are becoming normalized. And that's just not cool.
EDIT: it's especially not cool, because I see more and more traditional gamers who DEFINITELY KNOW BETTER deciding that "Honky Stair Rail" or "Genshin Implants" are somehow different and okay. Even though they really do know better than that.
As someone with an addictive personality, gw2 is just as bad as any other.
The existence of FOMO, the "gems" that are never sold in quantities to get the full value of your transaction, and the random loot boxes for mounts and fucking dyes of all things... Makes no difference if it's "just cosmetic". It's an exploitative business model for people vulnerable to those techniques. It's scummy as all hell. OP is right, there's no ethical GAAS.
And the game definitely suffers for the simple fact that the gemstore takes priority over it.
I’m not sure that this is an unpopular opinion either. Not in the states at least.
All my homies hate pay to win - it’s antithetical to what gaming was about. Just the same as paid kits and scripts for hackers used to be called skids. It was about classless community on the internet period.
Like I said to someone else, this wouldn't have been an unpopular opinion, just a couple of years ago.
But look at the front page of Reddit, without being logged in. It's just POST AFTER POST AFTER POST AFTER POST about "Honky Stair Rail" and "Genshit Implants."
Those two "games" are singlehandedly (double handedly? double-D anime-tittedly?) rehabilitating and normalizing the image of the free-to-pay genre.
It's just a Netflix for games. Many people who don't really want to invest time (or so they think) are a new market that opened since games stopped to be a nerds' shit. And it doesn't end with the game itself: many play Fortnite or Genshin for social communications about it, it's fandom and peer pressure. You could've seen that with the last episodes of Lost that were making news and got discussed everywhere, you see it now. And no wonder it's then gets more publicity, because that's what average person consumes.
Obviously, there's a big red flag of capitalism perfecting it's hooks, now in the mainstream. But there's still a market for more engaging games. Souls-likes could've been dead in the water if TRU GAMIN has vanished, BG3 sales show that AAA can thrive, Dead Stranding kinda plays with that visible lack of gameplay while adding Kojima's shenanigans, Devolver Digital still greenlits cool projects without bullshit. And games that try to marry classic IPs with some form of gacha\gambling fail like Diablo: Immortal or Owerwatch 2, because most CEOs are fortunately incappable of understanding their shit.
I feel like your general message of not supporting these practices is kind of misguided because the crowds who play Genshin\PUBG\whatever doesn't often intersect with those who play non-casual games, and they probably aren't represented on Lemmy that much.
Dude you’re like a decade late and in the wrong economic system. This is just capitalism at work. There is no ethical consumption here, and pretty much everyone stuck with it either doesn’t realize it or they’ve accepted it and moved on. Gaming is just a drop in the bucket - look at everything we buy. Everything is a subscription. You own nothing, its all licensed. Every business is implementing predatory anti consumer practices. All tech has planned obsolescence built in. Its all designed so we cant repair it, and need to buy the new thing. Every service is full of extra fees for services that should have been included. Fuck, go buy a car with heated seats and even that is a subscription now. It’s everywhere, and we’re too late.
The biggest issue with this monetization model is that the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way. When a person buys everything they need and still plays the game, their only contribution is literally stealing bandwidth. Unless they're contributing to some external resource.
Being treated like that is extremely dehumanizing so I can't in good conscience put any money in these kinds of games.
The biggest issue with this monetization model is that the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way
THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT THAT I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MAKING.
This is why it's categorically impossible for there to be any "good" examples of these games. As long as they're following this model, they can't be okay and they must be boycotted by anyone who gives a shit about games.
I think this is why I was so frustrated, when people were asking me for examples of this model fucking shit up. It's not about specific examples. Examples aren't needed. There simply isn't any way for this shit to be anything other than harmful.
It's like if I said "getting whacked on the thumb with a sledgehammer will cause injury" and people were like "uhhh, could you cite some examples of this claim being true?"
Like, no. Just no. It's fucking obvious. Asking for citations to prove that obvious harm is harmful is intellectually dishonest.
I helped to destroy gaming by having kids. According to my game launcher, the last time I played a PC game I paid for was 3 years ago, and the game was published in 2011. So, having helped to destroy gaming already, I don't give a flying fuck what people think of me for playing Crossmath on my phone while taking a dump, during the only opportunity when I'm not being disturbed.
It seems someone lost their 50/50 gacha pull. Remember, 99% of gamblers stop just before they hit it big. Keep on gambling. You can only lose 100% of what you have but you can win an infinite amount of anime waifus, the math are clear on what you should do.
So you want people to play games that they enjoy less, over games that they enjoy more, because of the business model of said games?
Why dont you take it a step further. Why not make all mmorpgs illegal, since they use basic psychology, to make themselves addicting. Why do you like mmorpgs? Because number gets bigger and others can see that and it makes you feel good.
Real gamers play singleplayer games with no rpg elements. Everything else is exploitative and immoral. Paying a monthly subscription is modern day indentured servitude, ie slavery. You dont own the game, the game owns you.
I mean for sure these games are bad for the industry but I don't think it's a moral failing for people to play them. The reality is that companies have learned how to manipulate and ease worse practices into games over time. It sucks that a notable number of people have fallen for it but accusing individuals of being at fault (especially here) isn't going to change the industry.
I don’t think it’s a moral failing for people to play them.
No, it DEFINITELY is. Willingly helping to pervert and destroy a formerly constructive industry is immoral. Players and developers will all suffer, if this shit isn't stopped.
Also, the industry is already changing. You haven't noticed the price of traditional non-free-to-pay games rising, recently? You think that's entirely unrelated to this shit? The dollars that are going into the gacha hole are being sucked out of the traditional model. That's pressuring the traditional publishers to raise unit prices.
I'm not about to tell anybody they're evil for playing a game like this and not knowing any better. If you really wanna change people's habits, you'd be better off showing them what a better game can be. Even then, they could legitimately prefer their gachas or be addicted. I think that's pretty crazy but there's only so much one can do.
The AAA price increase was mostly just wanting more money and using inflation as an excuse. They're not necessarily hurting because of f2p games. Well made traditional games still sell but often times the big publishers put out unfinished crap or overload their full-price games with monetization anyways. Those may be hurt financially. Meanwhile, games like Elden Ring and BG3 have done extremely well.
The pressure to change needs to be put on the companies, not the individuals. What the individual mostly needs is awareness.
What about people that pre order games?
Or people that buy each version of Madden or Fifa?
Or people that buy games regardless of rootkits like Denuvo?
Are you going to call them all evil for supporting companies with dubious practices? For daring to buy games they like?
You don’t get to tell people what they should do with their money or time to be “moral”.
In fact, I could just as well argue that to spend any money whatsoever on computer games is evil while there are people starving out there.
What about people that pre order games? Or people that buy each version of Madden or Fifa? Or people that buy games regardless of rootkits like Denuvo? Are you going to call them all evil for supporting companies with dubious practices? For daring to buy games they like?
I have no problem with any of that. You're putting words in my mouth. I actually think pre-ordering has a really good place in the activist buyer toolkit. Pre-order from companies who haven't burned you. Stop pre-ordering if they do burn you. It's a means of incentivizing good behavior. Make companies acutely aware that they have reputations that are either constantly at risk or needing to be mended, and there are always economic consequences for how they maintain those reputations.
Like someone pointed out, the problem with the mobile-style business model is that the developers are forced to put roadblocks in front of your progress through the game and/or invalidate that progress. That's where I draw the line. When the basic gameplay loop is based around the default setting of "it takes forever to do everything," and you can buy your way out of that, as long as you keep pumping money into the game...well, that's not okay.
There can't be any kind of good or acceptable way to run that model. It's outrageously harmful. And those "let's milk the players for a little more, every day" practices have become normalized to the point that they are showing up in games that supposedly aren't mobile-style pay-for-everything games. Like, look at some racing games, these days. They used to just have all the cars unlocked when you started the game, or maybe you'd unlock them as you progressed through the campaign mode.
But now, there are plenty of racing games where LOTS of the cars are just locked behind microtransaction paywalls. I don't think I'm out of line for suggesting that we should try and stop this shit, before it gets worse. Remember: at least one game company exec has proposed a future where we have to buy in-game ammunition with real money. Not in mobile-style games. Not in free-to-download games. In real, full-price games.
My issue isn’t really with your argument, though I personally find pre-ordering to be as bad as this pay to win crap. (But I don’t feel passionately enough about that point to debate it - I concede that an activist buyer could leverage that)
However, I do have issue with you calling people who spend money on micro transactions evil. Or immoral. I find that sentiment to be ridiculous and trivialising actual evil behaviour.
I know about the story where some idiot executive suggested paying a dollar to reload or something stupid like that. If you called the companies evil, or the executives… you know what… I might support that allegation. But the players? The customers?
I think I get why you are saying this - you believe the players enable/allow the companies to do this, thereby supporting their evil ways. I just don’t agree that buying a product (especially an entertainment product) from such a company is necessarily (and to use your word: literally) evil.
Say I agree that these players are evil. Should I now stop being friends with people once I learn they play Genshin? Should I shun them? Tell my sister I can no longer visit them because she allows her kids to play Genshin and Fortnite?
What about people paying subscriptions to streaming services that produce crap content? Or people that followed reality tv to the extent that it allowed the Kardashians to exist?
So apologies for this long reply, I guess my only real point is that while I agree with you that the behaviour of these (mobile game) companies is deplorable (to me), if people willingly spend their money on it, that is none of my business. I can vote with my wallet by buying games from studios I like.
Just like I dislike gambling and casinos, I would never call people that frequent those establishments immoral or evil.