Linux @lemmy.ml

9mo ago

Wayland usage has overtaken X11

Source: https://linux-hardware.org/?view=os_display_server

Reporting is done by users who voluntarily upload their system specs via
# hw-probe -all -upload

248 comments

Reporting is done by users who voluntarily upload their system specs via
# hw-probe -all -upload
So not skewed at all...
- Do you have a better way of measuring it?
  In what direction would voluntary self-reporting of all system specs skew the display server statistic (and why)?
  
  Do you have a better way of measuring it?
  No better way of measuring doesn't mean this is a good way of measuring.
  
  I imagine people who care about this sort of thing are more likely to report it. And people who care about this sort of thing are also more likely to be early adopters and go through the effort of switching to Wayland.
  The way to get a more random sample is not something I want (built-in, automatic telemetry by default). So I'm fine with having skewed data for something like this.
  
  Its a pretty good survey and has a good sample size. Statistics is hard. I won't take the criticism too seriously.
- err, why? actually it can be skewed against wayland(wayland users tend to be more security aware), and why the suprise, KDE, GNOME are wayland from the get go, steam deck too, hyprland and sway etc
  
  It can skew either way equally. We're just left to do armchair psychology about the type of people who would submit data to this site. So the numbers are effectively useless.
  
  Wait Steam Deck now runs Desktop mode in Wayland?
- I just did that, why not, but it misreported my DE anyway, so I'd take the OP post with quite a grain of salt.
- Why would it be skewed? What would be the cause for a subset of linux users, that upload hardware probes with extraneous information about their display server, to skew the extraneous data?
  Anti Commercial-AI license
  
  Because a huge portion of the people willing to do this are already on Wayland, but I believe there exists an even larger percentage on X that are not submitting any data.
  And another commenter said:
  We’re just left to do armchair psychology about the type of people who would submit data to this site. So the numbers are effectively useless.
  
  by default, your content is all rights reserved, the most restrictive license possible. AI trains on "all rights reserved" content all the time. You really think adding a CC-BY-NC is gonna do anything?

respects to "unknown" and tty users.
fuck display servers. All my homies love ASCII display tech.
- Seeing unknown: "What's he building in there? ...we have a right to know."
  
  That's Canonical building Mir 2.
  
  LET MEEEE INNNNNN
  
  TTY through telekinesis
- Framebuffers and TUIs: are we a joke to you?
  
  mmmm lack of proper double buffering on i3wm my beloved
- There's Twin.
  ~~I will add some more once i'm home.~~
  You know what? I'll just dump this here:
  draw: mouse drawing on the shell!
  imgfb: Draws a farbfeld or jpeg image to the Linux framebuffer
  baca: TUI e-book reader
  Terminal Image Viewer (tiv)
  FIM: framebuffer image viewer
  derasterize: cli pixel to ANSI converter
  fbterm: framebuffer terminal
  twin: Textmode WINdow environment
  directfb2: framebuffer desktop
  csv to ascii art table via python pandas
  
  Give me sixel apps, I want a sixel destop with hardware video decoding
  
  i like this, this is good.
- kmsdrm is tty, but not ascii. Or fbdev. links -g is best browser in Gentoo Minimal CD

Not really surprising considering that (IIRC) it's the default on the Gnome variants of Ubuntu, Debian and Fedora
But keep in mind that voluntary data tends to be pretty skewed
- voluntary data tends to be pretty skewed
  Yea and a strangely (to me) large proportion of people seem vehemently opposed to apps even asking to collect usage data, which is incredibly helpful for developers, putting aside the more controversial things like privacy/marketing uses of the data.
  Personally I don't believe for one second that Wayland has actually surpassed the install base of X11-like display servers.

Yeh, I'll wait until the bugs are ironed out and my distro (mint) determines it's stable. No need to start asking for troubles when everything is working smoothly.
- Then there's ppl like me: dual 4k with Wayland on Nvidia in Gnome with VRR. Hoorah!
  Just waiting for explicit sync and I will be complete.
  
  Which nvidia, if I may ask
  
  https://www.phoronix.com/news/XWayland-24.1-Released
  
  What about PRIME, though? I'd like to give it a shot, but I only just ironed out my setup with triple-gpu(all different vendors) and a ton of sweat, I'm afraid it's going to be back to square one with wayland.
- Same. I don't see why people need to argue about it or make a conscious decision about it anyway.
  (My distro determined it was ready to use a while ago, so I've been switched over for a long time now. Indeed it's working fine, and I think I hardly even notice the difference.)

Every now and then I think 'OK, this time I surely should be able to switch over to Wayland!'
And there's always one application or use case that stops me.
Yeah, I'm on nvidia which hasn't helped either...
- For What application you face issue? I’m curious as XWayland should provide backward compatibility.
  
  Electron applications are notorious and prolific, and resolutions are very specific to versions and details of the program's build process.
  Steam can be a big old flashy boi
- Same I want to move over so bad. It's so smooth and the animations feel much nicer but there is always a deal breaker issue that sends me back to x11 within a few hours.
- Yeah, had a rtx 2060 and sidegraded to an intel arc a750 just to avoid the nvidia xwayland issues.

Wait, is it on a population of 5000 computers? Bruh, why are we even looking at this?
- No the sample size is ~5000, which is pretty OK if representative of the population (big if though)
  
  Given that it requires self-reporting from the command line, I feel like the people that are more likely to be on the cutting edge may be more likely to report as well
  
  I doubt it's representative of the population. Because it's from self reporting, at best it's representative of those who advocate their favourite platform, which is just a particular portion of the population. Though it would be cool to see Wayland surpass X

I'm still using x11 as Wayland always make my screen blinking and tearing no metter what distro or driver version.
- NVIDIA?
  
  Ye NVIDIA sadly they have CUDA monopoly and AMD AI is not yet mature :/
- Exact same situation on Nvidia
- This is the solution to your problem:
  https://www.phoronix.com/news/XWayland-24.1-Released
  It may take a while to get to your distro.

I'm sure Nvidia will become stable on wayland by the time xfce also migrates lol
- NVIDIA is likely to be stable on Wayland next month. If you wait for other people to ship you code, it will arrive with the fall releases ( eg. Ubuntu 24.10 ).
  Xfce is targeting 4.20 for full Wayland support. If you use Xfce 4.20 on kernel 6.9, you may break the Internet.
  
  Don't let your memes be dreams
  
  He said the numbers.
  
  NVIDIA is likely to be stable on Wayland next month.
  Do you have a source for that?
  
  Nice.
- Pretty much all the Xfce4 apps support Wayland. We just need Xfce4 panel and the desktop.

who is using linux through their web browser
- Users of ESXI, 3CX, Univention and Nextcloud
  
  would that show up as their display server though? surely VMWare et al run some other display server on the backend and then stream to clients via VNC?

Way to go Wayland

I wonder how representative that is of actual software used. I would imagine hardware probes are run from installers and live systems quite frequently. I would certainly not expect several percentage points of "neither" in practical settings.
- "Neither" are Linux systems that don't use a display server, i.e. CLI only systems.
  
  Yeah, but when was the last time you decided to upload hardware device data for a root server to some hardware survey? That is something almost exclusively done by the kind of people who want to show off their system in some way.
- I would guess not very representative at all. I don't believe wayland usage is higher, like at all. Maybe in a limited setting like NEW installs of the most popular distros, just because they default to it. But the existing install base? No way.
  
  This is a graph of recent reports (one year time frame). The total reports from all time are over 70% X11.
  But since the statistics are based on one time uploads, there's no way to know how many of those systems are still in use, or still run X11.

I've switched to X11 last week, because kwin_wayland crashes each time my monitor enters low-power mode.
- My intel laptop on kde is unreliable, but gnome is super stable.
  If you want windows like taskbar, you can turn it on gnome and other features that will make it more like windows.
  On desktop with AMD video card I saw no difference between kde and gnome.
  I ended up back on gnome. Because it was less distracting. I am a long time gnome user and kde was a curiosity. Latest versions of both (Arch Linux).
  
  Would love to know how you're dealing with Gnome and HiDPI. I found it really wacky, massive title bars and such. Went to KDE Plasma 6 and it all looks right, but agree it seems a little wonky sometimes. I'm hoping the bugs get ironed out.
- Out of curiosity, what GPU do you have?
  
  Intel UHD graphics.

I switched to Wayland the moment my distro went moved to KDE Plasma 6 because according to my logic: if things are going to be broken and I'm going to adjust to them anyways, I might as well do it all at once: shock therapy style.
Plasma 6 broke a lot of my desktop customization, but that is to be expected. And Wayland? It has been surprisingly okay. I am experiencing some keyboard-related problems that I can't even begin to track down (sometimes the keyboard flat out refuses to work for certain programs, sometimes it's the numpad). However, I am not sure if it's really related to Wayland, so I'm withholding judgement.
- How are you enjoying EndeavourOS?
  
  .... I actually use Arch. Sorry.
  But really, I would have gone with EndeavourOS (instead of Arch) if it were not for my friend who really strongly advocated for Arch (even installing it for me—or rather, converting my Manjaro install into an Arch one).
  If I've had any regrets in my Linux journey, it's choosing Manjaro instead of EndeavourOS as my introduction to Arch-based distros.

@KISSmyOSFeddit
Hw-probe is a nice project. To buy my laptop I created an usb bootable linux that auto connectet my mobile hotspot and uploaded the report.
I went to som shops and usbbooted their devices.
Most shops had no problem with that.
So I found a working convertable laptop. 👍
What's sad ont this linux-hardware.org website is the poor desin of this homepage.
It is really not usable, except for your own device. But also there its difficult to analyse for certain hardware details.
- I'm quite surprised they actually allowed to stick unknown USB into computer they will be selling to their customers 😮

Finally, it's the year of the other desktop!

Voluntarily uploaded data? This feels like that old linux user count site.
I will run that probe on my machines to contribute, though.
- For completeness, we should review the involuntarily uploaded data as well.
  
  Don't forget the voluntarily not uploaded data! That can't be left out.

Here's a smaller sample size (2417 people at the time of writing) but all you need to do is fill in your details on the website: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/users/statistics/
X is at 66% and Wayland is at 33% for GamingOnLinux.
- Wayland has a mouse capture bug in proton / wine. It particularly seems to be an issue in FPS games. That may contributing to slower adoption for Linux gamers.
  https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/7564
  
  Works fine here, on mutter with mesa. Looks mostly like a KDE bug.
  
  Speaking of Valve, they probably have numbers for Wayland vs X too, unfortunately they don't seem to publish this statistic in their survey.

Glad to see it finally happening. Wayland has been an amazing experience for several years

Those poor Nvidia users lol.
- I'm currently on Wayland with Nvidia hardware and it's running fine tbh
  
  yup, same. especially after explicit sync lands in a couple of days, even the rest of the minor problems should vanish.
  
  Same here. With the exception of the explicit sync, which will hopefully be resolved this week, I have been running Plasma 6 wayland since February. And honestly when I tried the X11 version it had more issues.
- I mean, by now everyone should know not to buy Nvidia hardware if you want to run Linux on it.
  It's been more than 10 years since Linus' finger to Nvidia.
  
  “Everyone” who wants to be informed, but linux is also for the unconcerned or for newcomers.
  Not to mention the monopoly that nvidia has on laptops.
  
  Sorry. Wife's Christmas present. She wanted to surprise me. Gotta make do.
  
  Bought a brand new machine. Top of the line. Installed windows on it. Thought "You know what, fuck this, time to give Linux another go". Discovered that nvida and Wayland don't get on...
  
  Linux is becoming more and more popular on the desktop because it is now well suited for gaming. In addition to Proton, you also have to consider all the handhelds like SteamDeck. Valve certainly doesn't want an Nvidia product with crumbling proprietary drivers. With AMD, Nvidia could see that there is a market for it and has now established itself. It was only logical that Nvidia would not stand still. They will do everything to dominate the market as well.
  
  nvidia works better for me on Linux than both nvidia/amd on windows. I know not everyone's experience is the same, but it's at least not universally bad in case you were trying to say that.
- Wayland works way better for me than X. GTX 1660
  
  That's great for you. But it also has tons of problems with a lot of other users. Including issues with proprietary drivers, XWayland compat for many apps/games, screen tearing, multi-monitor setups (esp. with different aspect ratios and/or dpi scaling factors), VRR, HDR, rotation, color management, many accessibility features etc.

I tried switching to Wayland on Mint, it did not go well. Unfortunately I do not care to follow an hour long guide to figure out how to get it to run games properly.
- Mint Wayland support is experimental and was released in Mint 21.3 ~3 months ago
  The Wayland session isn't as stable as the default (X11) one. It lacks features and it comes with its own limitations.
  It was added as a preview for people interested in Wayland and as an easy way for them to test if they want to give us feedback.
  A board was set up to keep track of Wayland development. It’s available at https://trello.com/b/HHs01Pab/cinnamon-wayland.
  A dedicated Github repository was created for issues related to Wayland, whether they need fixing in Cinnamon, in an XApp project, a Mint tool or anything software project we maintain: https://github.com/linuxmint/wayland.
  In terms of timing Wayland support doesn't need to be fully ready (i.e. to be a better Cinnamon option for most people) before 2026 (Mint 23.x). That leaves us 2 years to identify and to fix all the issues. It’s something we’ll continue to work on and improve release after release.
  https://www.linuxmint.com/rel_virginia_whatsnew.php

Is this because of me?

I try to switch once a month. Still not there for me yet, last time Cura was acting up.

Which nvidia drivers work with Wayland? I have one pc that only has 470 supported card, l guess all hopes are lost there.. But my 980 gtx machine seems to work mostly on wayland, except somehow minecraft only works on Xorg
- That’s a good question for Nvidia.
- Gtx 470 should work just fine, but 980 will not work because nvidia locked it down.
  
  Yea, it works with 470 using nouveau drivers but the card isn’t as fast as with the proprietary drivers, at least it felt like that for me

As someone who switched to wayland way back when sway was dominant...? About time.

X11 has been mostly solid for me. Wonder if Wayland would be worth messing with.
- To temper your expectations you'll likely have some problems. But you'll have the ability in future to make use of new display technologies, like VRR and HDR
- If you have NVIDIA, wait until the explicit sync stuff makes it to your distro. Otherwise, go for it!

Only because it doesn't ask me to recompile the source every time a kernel update comes in.

Crazyy!
Btw I am XWayland free since today!
I have a list of recommended apps here
Some apps need environment variables:
Qt:
qpwgraph
GTK
GPU Screen recorder, I guess
Electron
Nextcloud Flatpak
MullvadVPN RPM
Signal Flatpak
(Element, I switched to the Webapp in Librewolf)
Freetube Flatpak
You can use xlsclients -l to detect apps using XWayland.
Some may even want to run apps through XWayland on purpose, like KeepassXC for Clipboard access or autotype. Lets see how long it takes to implement all the needed protocols.
- Let me know when wine finally gets ported to Wayland!
  
  True, if I use bottles Flatpak as a GTK wayland app, the actual apps still use XWayland.
  Not using any Wine apps though.
  
  Ok
  https://github.com/varmd/wine-wayland
- /circlejerk
  flatpak bad lmao
  
  Flatpak saved my ass when I super broke my Arch upgrade but didn't have time to fix it before work. I ran using only Flatpak apps for like 6 weeks because they were the only thing that worked

Gotta resoect the tty. Consistently consitent

Should I consider switching? X11 just works and I’d need to rewrite all my config and I don’t really have the time rn.
- No
- If your graphics card isn't a NVIDIA you would be fine with Wayland since months.

I just set up xmonad because I was in the mood for change. Took about a week of tinkering a bit each day and I really like it. Afterwards, I was still in the mood for configs and looked at Wayland. There isn't much progress on Wayland xmonad, so guess that has to wait.
That's a common problem I've been hearing for almost 10 now - the software support isn't quite there yet.

I'm willing to bet that, like Linux usage statistics, Steam Deck had something to do with this.
Anyway, I wish I could switch to Wayland, but back when I used it it caused a dozen programs I use everyday to get very crashy.
- How many Steam deck users are uploading their hardware stats though? This is opt-in reporting.
- Doesn't steam deck use x11?
  
  After doing some sniffing: Yes AND no
  The default "gaming mode" that the Deck boots into is running wayland, specifically valve's own gamescope compositor which has a lot of workarounds and breaks from wayland's spec to allow for better gaming performance.
  When you quit out to "desktop mode" it loads into KDE Plasma with X11, although with recent changes to Plasma, it may well be that the desktop mode will change to being wayland based too.
- Pony? Pony.
  
  Sorry I'm a little horse.

Waiting for explicit sync support from nvidia but even then, I doubt I'll switch until I can enable tearing. I'm sensitive to input latency and playing on wayland feels like my aim is floating

Web is no display server.
- It is possible, although unlikely, that it is the display server for WebOS, the OS Palm built and LG bought. I seem to recall them having their own display server.
  
  Ah right, their smart-tv OS.

Cool!

Finally

These days the unique use case X was designed for is very, very niche. For everyone else, Wayland is the way to go.

Anyone who needs accessibility is screwed as Wayland takes over. Let's hope we can still choose for another say 40 years. Then, I'll be done, and Wayland can rule. Pity those who will still need accessibility options though.
- Are you serious? Every sane desktop is working on accessibility. I recently heard from System76 that they're putting in the effort for COSMIC, we have GNOME focusing a portion of that €1 million they got from Germany, on accessibility (last I heard, they're working on cross-desktop solutions). Now, I don't remember hearing much from Plasma on accessibility, but I think it's fair to assume they're also working on it.
  
  User skullgiver provides an excellent answer as to why. It's a shame, but it's a reality that most apps won't expose themselves properly, and hence accessibility is over in Wayland. Despite their excellent efforts.
- How so?

thats so pog, i wished it actually worked

248 comments