What are tankies? What does sea-lioning mean?
I've run across these terms several times, but without enough context to figure out what they mean. Could someone help me out, please?
ETA All of you are amazing! A huge thank you to everyone who responded, and an extra thank you to those who have provided links or explanations to further and/or related information. I am learning so much by reading all of these comments!
Sealioning is the constant bad faith, feigning ignorance, asking for evidence of everything under the guise of “just asking questions”. Then ignoring any evidence presented and moving on to the next demand. Used to shut down discourse entirely.
Tankies are leftists that defend or deny the atrocities committed by authoritarian communist regimes like the Soviet Union or the CCP. It was first used to describe communists in Great Britain that defended the Soviet Union for using tanks to crush anti-communist revolutions.
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Never heard the phrase sealioning before, but I have seen it everywhere.
Tankies are leftists that defend or deny the atrocities committed by authoritarian communist regimes like the Soviet Union or the CCP. It was first used to describe communists in Great Britain that defended the Soviet Union for using tanks to crush anti-communist revolutions.
Ironically history has proven that decision to have been the correct one and even the soft-left here in Britain today acknowledges that the people who were called "tankies" originally when that happened were all completely correct.
Edit: Downvoters literally defending against the stopping of what were literal actual fascist-led uprisings because they know absolutely nothing about european history.
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I dont mind most sea mammals...
But sea lions?
I could do without sea lions
https://wondermark.com/c/1k62/
That's what coined the term
I like to call it JAQing off
Sealioning is a sort of evolution of JAQing off. It's the JAQ coupled with feigned innocence and indignance when people actually stop putting up with BS.
Actually after thinking a bit deeper about it, it mirrors Socratic Questioning, but with the opposite intended end goal of muddying the waters instead of gaining clarity.
Related - JAQing off
I've seen Sealioning used quite a bit in a particular Lemmy instance that would self describe themselves as Pro-Russia & Pro-China, as a way of shutting down discourse between people who disagree with them. There are people who disagree with a particular narrative, and they're discounted immediately for wanting to know how someone would arrive at a pro-Russian & pro-China position.
Also they'll just "whatabout!" and change the subject whenever unassailable critiques of these regimes come up. As if its is only possible to hold outrage in a single direction at a time.
I'll have you know I'm capable of disliking EVERYONE mentioned in a given conversation.
Is this the same as "concern trolling"?
Concern trolling is acting like you're concerned about the consequences of something.
Like,
If we let people wear masks during COVID, we'll see more bank robberies because masks are normalized!
Sea Lioning would be if I just kept asking you questions about why masks help, often while asking you to link sources. I don't actually want to see any sources tho. I'm just going to keep asking new questions and for more sources until you get tired and stop replying.
Because the more time you waste on me, they less you help people who are genuinely asking for it. Plus when you stop replying, I can claim that as a victory because that must mean there aren't any sources that agree with you.
It's related but it differs on the form. Concern trolling is derailing online discussions and debates by simulating concern over a seemingly valid counterpoint, making all participants waste time and effort arguing a previously settled matter, or pretending to just be playing devil's advocate. Acting as if, although you support the cause or discussion at hand, you somehow still have some valid concerns to oppose.
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Concern trolling is "raising concerns" about certain issues that have little to no basis in reality and only serves to inject bigotry and bad ideas. For example, people were concerned about "the gays(tm)" spreading their immoral gay AIDS virus all over innocent children during the 80s and into the 90s, only to learn that AIDS is spread through contact with broken mucosa membranes, which then shifted to "the gays(tm) are pedos" argument.
The "concerns" are nearly always disingenuous.
Everyone points to the comic in regards to sealioning, but I have always equated it to posters who are incapable of having an actual debate and keep saying "Why? Why? Why? Why?" until they get tired and fall asleep under the pier (but then their friend wakes up and takes over).
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I usually file that under "whataboutism"
Biden's gas prices are so high. Worst president ever.
gas prices go down
mention that Biden should be congratulated for lowering prices if he was the cause for them going up
Yeah well... he's still the worst for all these other reasons!
But why, specifically, is the term "Sealioning"? Is it referencing some behavior exhibited by sealions? Is it an aggregate of or wordplay on other slang?
See this comment: https://lemmy.world/comment/1261631
It’s from a wondermark comic
“Tankies” is slang for communists who align with the philosophy of authoritarian rule, like the Soviet Union who used violence to keep countries under their control in check.
Sealioning is something I saw a lot on Reddit, but not so much here - it is when someone responds continuously asking questions, trying to seem like they are engaged, but in reality they are trolling you. Like when you say something like “The sky is so blue today” and the come back with “That is interesting, do you have a link to some information that I can learn more about that?”
Oh my god I get sealioned in real life. Now I can call people out on it with a title.
Asking for proof isn't necessarily trolling. Someone making wild claims should have to source their knowledge
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They're not really communists tho, because (like you said) they defend the use of violence by a ruling class
A ruling class just wouldn't exist under actual communism. Which is the main reason communism won't work for any group more than like ~200 people in size.
They're fans of fake communism like the Soviet Union or China
Yeah the dictatorship of the proletariat shouldn’t be thought of as like the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein but rather as forceful removal of hierarchy from society. “We will learn to live as equals no matter how difficult it is and those who refuse to join in the work will be punished.” If you’re just getting rid of the people who held power before the revolution and not fighting the desire for power you’re just gonna wind up with a red czar.
we used to call them Maoists.
but Trotskyists I met later on, though less dangerous, were always more fanatical, nostalgically passionate 🤮
i'd figure tankies by strictest definition to be garden variety MLs, though yeah this typically includes support for mao.
my experience of trots has been old trade union guys trying to hawk papers/do book clubs linking everything somehow to permanent revolution, with a side of turning up to pickets. idk if i'd call them fanatical, they tend to spend too much time bickering about organisation amongst themselves. definitely agree with the weirdly nostalgic part though
Tankies are the cringe "communists", authoritarians that beleave that no one but them (definitely not rich people) should have power. You can generally spot them because they often idolize the Soviet Union and CCP, despite the fact that both were/are authoritarian shitholes.
Sealioning is when you repeatedly ask someone basic questions in an attempt to annoy them or make it look like they don't have any. Often sealioners pretend they just want to engage in debate, but in reality ignore or deny any evidence or arguments presented.
Basically “when de revolushin happensh der gonna issue ush bridesh and lower dee age of conshent to shirteen”
Tankies are Red Fascists. They're essentially communism-flavored authoritarians. I would contend they do not qualify as "left", "leftists", etc but far-right. They support and defend Soviet Russia and the CCP, specifically defending their atrocities and oppression.
Che Guevara, famously a fascist.
This is what spending far too much time in anti-communist spaces does to your brain. Even Jeremy fucking Corbyn defends the USSR ffs.
Can there be such a thing as a progressive/leftist who is pro-authoritarianism? I guess they must exist somewhere but I haven't met any.
Can there be such a thing as a progressive/leftist who is pro-authoritarianism?
Not really.
Progressivness is about freedom, authoritarianism about the lack of freedom.
But someone could hypothetically be an actual communist and an authoritarian. Because communism is just an economic system.
In practice the only way it would work is "mob rule". Like what happened during the French revolution where people rose up, killed the ruling class, and then distributed their wealth.
But even that wasn't the same because the mob didn't attempt to distribute it equally. Everyone just grabbed shit.
I think it's especially confusing to people with a two party political system, because economic and social policy start to get intertwined, when they're two different things.
Which a cynic would say is intentional so that no matter who gets elected, the wealthy win.
From wikipedia:
Left-wing politics describes the range of political ideologies that support and seek to achieve social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy as a whole[1][2][3][4] or certain social hierarchies.[5]
According to emeritus professor of economics Barry Clark, supporters of left-wing politics "claim that human development flourishes when individuals engage in cooperative, mutually respectful relations that can thrive only when excessive differences in status, power, and wealth are eliminated."[6]
So maybe? If you had a truly benevolent dictator that promoted equality, freedom (limited to everything except changing nature of government) and prosperity for all then that might fit? But in the real world, not effectively.
I wonder what’s more fascist, defeating the nazis like the ussr or collaborating with the freikorps to kill communists like the SPD :)
One thing about sealioning that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that it's a tactic designed to utterly exhaust the other person by asking question after question with no willingness to listen to the answers. It's there to waste time and grind down your opponent until they have had enough of your bullshit and tell you to fuck off. At that point you can feign offense and declare victory.
A quick jab can help cure sealioning.
Or a club to the fucking head.
(For legal and animal cruelty reasons this is a joke.)
For sea-lioning, here’s the comic the term originated from to explain it
Thank you, that really explains it! I was afraid that I may come across as sea-lioning sometimes because I tend to ask lots of questions, but the comic makes it more clear what sea-lioning is.
It boils down to whether you argue in good faith. Even better, if you discuss in good faith. Asking a lot of questions that comes from a desire to learn or from curiosity usually lands differently then the disingenuous questioning of someone like a tankie
I can't seem to open the link, it just says "There's nothing here" I'm not sure if it's my Lemmy client or if it's just gone, but does anybody have a mirror?
That's weird, here's just the link without any formatting. Try this: https://wondermark.com/c/1k62/
Sealioning originiates with this comic strip. Tankies is a perjorative term broadly applied to anyoneone with marxist-leninist beliefs, applied by centre left and liberals. It refers originally to the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia with the implication being that "tankies" support the crushing of resistence to Soviet authority but used more generally just do dismiss anyone with militantly anti-capitalist ideals.
applied by centre left and liberals
It's a term that originates with the left. Specifically, those who broke with the USSR over imperialist invasions, referring to those who did not. More broadly, it refers to the authoritarian left (as opposed to the anarchist left).
Tankies are generally not just anybody with communist perspectives, but a. certain extreme. A tankie is the type of person who will essentially argue that capitalism and western society are the roots of all evil, and deflect from any criticism of Russia, China, Iran, etc. by attacking the US instead of actually addressing the criticism.
Yeah I’m an anarchist. I have friends who are ML. If they were to say, support a theoretical Cuban invasion of Rojava (listen there aren’t many anti capitalist countries in 2023) because Rojava isn’t the right kind of anti capitalist that would be some tankie ass shit.
The Soviets weren’t saying “be communist or be destroyed” the rebels believed in communism they just wanted self rule.
Also tankie usually implies someone supports Russia and China no matter what they do. Often they use the argument of being anti imperialist even when defending imperialist expansion.
Found the tankie.
I'd add that it can be used less pejoratively as a authoritarian Communist.
Thank you all for your help, it is much appreciated!
Thank you all for your help
Be warned this thread was completely invaded by neoliberals, you only received extremely biased views. For starters, the word "tankie" is something libtards came up with to insult those whose view differs too largely from theirs.
Also remember the United States commited genocide of their own indigenous people, they practice slavery in their prisons, they have dropped thousands of bombs in the arabs, there are several instances of structural racism in areas with heavy black population, the United States has also invaded multiple nations for questionable reasons.
Does this excuse some Communist atrocities? No, it doesn't. Stalin went too far, we know, he implemented dubious policies, we know. But this is not such a simple situation. The top post of this thread says we "specifically defend those atrocities", this couldn't be farther from the truth.
We do not defend any genocides, including the ones that did not happen, we wouldn't defend them if they did happen. We defend a much greater goal. If we ever defended any genocide it would the mass killing of billionaires and nazis.
Did you know that NATO's first Chief of Staff was a nazi officer?
Thank you for responding. I have boiled down the aggregate of answers as basically a tankie supports authoritarianism, or use of violence to deal with opposition. If this take is incorrect, someone please correct where I have it wrong. Btw, I have deliberately ignored references to left/right as meaningless in my quest for information.
People complaining about "tankies" are exactly like the people that complain about the "woke". The behaviour is two sides of the same coin, one performed by conservatives-only while the other is performed by both of them in unity against the only anti-capitalists.
Both are functionally meaningless, being undefined in any given situation so they can be thrown around in all places.
But there are people who identify as left-wing who will support China and Russia while downplaying their authoritarianism.
That's not something being invented as a boogeyman. Anyone can go to lemmygrad.ml right now to see it in action.
You got down voted but you're right. Tankie is the new form of commie after that fell out of favor. Western "champaign socialists" (another term I hate but it kinda applies here) use it to criticize people from countries that actually have had socialist experiments. Most of the leftists globally are not western and would fit under the standard western definition of tankie. But if you've never come close to overthrowing your own government, are you positioned all that well to criticize someone elses revolution while you sit comfortably in the imperial core?
Poor countries face challenges that rich countries can't imagine often from western interference and revolutions are an ugly business. No Castro was not Santa Claus but he was a marked improvement over Batista.
Did you notice the huge amount of downvotes on any post in here that isn't outright insults the so called "tankies"?
You got down voted but you’re right. Tankie is the new form of commie after that fell out of favor.
During the Red Scare, calling someone a "communist" was itself a death threat. Red Scare is now over and you have people openly declaring themselves communist, that's why they had to come up with a new term. Tankie was their first attempt but they messed up by making it too restrictive, now they're pushing a new term
"Woke."
Example sentences: "Free healthcare is wokeism"
The above is a natural evolution since "Free healthcare is communism" would have the opposite effect if you keep repeating it over and over. At some point people will declare themselves "woke" and the right will come up with yet another new term.
Hakim explains: https://youtu.be/LcJ5NrJtQ8g
Vijay Prashad (regularly works with Chomsky) explains: https://youtu.be/tsqE9kEsDVY
The Deprogram explains: https://youtu.be/YVYVBOFYJco
In short, "tankie" is a thought-terminating phrase thrown into any conversations where people want to get others to terminate all thought coming from people to their left. It gets thrown at communists by other communists, it gets thrown at communists by anarchists, it gets thrown at all of the above by socdems, it gets thrown at all of the above by liberals, and it gets thrown at all of the above including liberals by fascists.
Its function in actual practice is that it moves discourse and spaces rightwards. Anyone using the phrase should be completely disregarded as a person that wants you to keep your brain closed.
EDIT: Downvoters literally downvoting actually published leftist internationalist author saying exactly what I just said here because they don't want to stop using it as a thought-terminator and don't consider the fact that all they're doing is moving things rightwards when they use it.
That top down explanation is pretty funny and accurate. Everyone is a Tankie to fascists.
Tankies are either:
And sealioning is a type of internet trolling where you repeatedly make incessant, bad-faith attempts to “just have a debate” and then ignoring all responses unread.
"Tankie" is a term originally used within the left-wing political sphere to describe those who supported the Soviet Union, including its use of military force to maintain its influence over its satellite states, particularly referring to the crushing of the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and the Prague Spring in 1968 with tanks. Today, it's often used more broadly, sometimes pejoratively, to describe people who uncritically support or idealize authoritarian socialist or communist regimes, often ignoring or downplaying their human rights abuses.
How dare you bring up facts and unbiased views? Are you a tankie? GTFO! ChatGPT is a threat to American National Security!!! /s
Of all the things Kruschev would do after Stalin's death that Stalin should’ve shot him for - running tanks into Hungary was absolutely correct
The Communists who sided with tanks going into Hungary was how Communists earned the moniker “Tankie”
Yet 50 years later it’s revealed that MI6 were training the rebels
“Tankie” should unironically be worn with pride. In the fact “tankies” were absolutely correct in characterising the uprising as a semi-fascist counter-revolution (doors of jews and Communists were marked for extermination) that needed to be put down
Some of the weapons used were American, and others almost certainly British. Mr Smith says MI6 and the CIA had buried arms caches in the woods around Prague and Budapest for use by “stay-behind” parties or fifth columnists in case of war. Additional: The Truth About Hungary is a brilliant and quite short book worth reading. Published in 1957 it basically set out the character of the protests as semi-fascist and supported by the imperialist powers. Basically everything that was dismissed as Communist propaganda but has now been confirmed by the Western press. People seem to forget that Hungary only a 11 years previously was a fascist state allied with the Nazis and Left Anticommunists have continually tried to portray the uprising as a “socialist uprising but with a more human face”
https://espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/the-truth-about-hungary.pdf
Section from the book “The Truth about Hungary” by Herbert Aptheker; a prominent figure in U.S. scholarly discourse in the 1940’s, and Marxist Historian. Written in 1957 it outlined what later would be confirmed by the bourgeois Western press
"The special correspondent of the Yugoslav paper, Politika, (Nov. 13, 1956) describing the events of those days, said that the homes of Communists were marked with a white cross and those of Jews with a black cross, to serve as signs for the extermination squads. “There is no longer any room for doubt,” said the Yugoslav reporter, “it is an example of classic Hungarian fascism and of White Terror. The information,” continued this writer, "coming from the provinces tells how in certain places Communists were having their eyes put out, their ears cut off, and that they were being killed in the most terrible ways."
"But the forces of reaction were rapidly consolidating their power and pushing forward on the top levels, while in the streets the blood of scores of massacred Communists, Jews, and progressives was flowing."
"Some of the reports reaching Warsaw from Budapest today caused considerable concern. These reports told of massacres of Communists and Jews by what were described as 'Fascist elements' ...." (N.Y. Times, Nov. 1. 1956)
"The evidence is conclusive that the entry of Soviet troops into Budapest stopped the execution of scores, perhaps thousands of Jews, for by the end of October and early November, anti-Semtic pogroms - hallmark of unbridled fascistic terror - were making their appearance, after an absence of some ten years, within Hungary."
"A correspondent of the Israeli newspaper Maariv (Tel Aviv) reported:
During the uprising a number of former Nazis were released from prison and other former Nazis came to Hungary from Salzburg . . . I met them at the border . . . I saw anti-Semitic posters in Budapest . . . On the walls, street lights, streetcars, you saw inscriptions reading: “Down with Jew Gero!” “Down with Jew Rakosi!” or just simply “down with the Jews!”
Leading rabbinical circles in New York received a cable early in November from corresponding circles in Vienna that “Jewish blood is being shed by the rebels in Hungary.” Very much later-in February, 1957-the World Jewish Congress reported that “anti-Semitic excesses occurred in more than twenty villages and smaller provincial towns during the October-November revolt.” This occurred, according to this very conservative body, because “fascist and anti-Semitic groups had apparently seized the opportunity, presented by the absence of a central authority, to come to the surface.” Many among the Jewish refugees from Hungary, the report continued, had fled from this anti-Semitic pogrom-like atmosphere (N.Y. Times, Feb. 15, 1957). This confirmed the earlier report made by the British Rabbi, R. Pozner, who, after touring refugee camps, declared that “the majority of Jews who left Hungary did so for fear of the Hungarians and not the Russians.” The Paris Jewish newspaper, Naye Presse, asserted that Jewish refugees in France claimed quite generally that Soviet soldiers had saved their lives."
Per Wikipedia, "Tankie is a pejorative label for communists and those who align with Marxism–Leninism ideology." That's basically what you get when you ask people to define, "tankie."
But, as with most perjoratives, its usage has expanded. It can still be used in its original meaning but it's often used much more broadly. If you do a search on how people use the word "tankie" (like in comment threads) you'll see it's now commonly used to describe anyone who isn't sufficiently critical of China and Russia and sometimes as a modern synonym for "un-American".
Someone once described Tankies (at least the ones that are behind the Lemmy codebase) as "conservative communists who think the Tiananmen Square Massacre was a hoax" and uh, I just find that fitting.
I'll just leave this here:
Well, except for the whole communism thing. Seeing as communism and autocracy are diametrically opposed as ideologies.
Wiktionary is a good resource for slang-y definitions.
https://kbin.social/u/@XiaoHei@lemmy.world
That's a (CCP) tankie and very likely a paid one too. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50CentParty
The Lemmy admins are also well known tankies.
Damn - the mental gymnastics that account performs to try and justify systematic oppression is worthy of Olympic Gold. 90% of their arguments are "China's not bad because the US is worse", followed by a full frontal attack on democracy and "wokeness" while claiming to be a leftist. A very shrill shill.
Sealioning is a type of online harassment or trolling tactic, where someone persistently requests empirical evidence from another user with the intent to exhaust them rather than engage in sincere debate. It's named after a webcomic in which a sea lion follows a character around, constantly demanding proof for a casual statement made in conversation. It's often seen as a form of bad faith argument, as the goal isn't really to get information, but to frustrate or tire out the person being targeted.
Tankies are the left's version of internet nazis on the right.
Ultimately they aren't a serious threat to anyone, even if their views are harmful and misguided.
Being a Tankie is when you go so far left you end up coming back right and supporting Fascism still.
True communism never existed, supporting anything the Soviet Union did is fascist.
