PugJesus @ PugJesus @lemmy.world Posts 4,384Comments 8,803Joined 2 yr. ago
Federation isn’t a proxy. You’re conflating two different things here. If you use a proxy to access a website, you yourself have still accessed that website.
If I access a lemmy community on a remote server, I am not accessing that remote community directly, I am still on my home instance, accessing a local copy. For example, I am still subscribed to boardgames@feddit.de. I could go create a post there. But guess what. Feddit.de doesn’t exist anymore. The only place that post will go is lemmy.zip because feddit.de is not there to federate it out. Is feddit.de suddenly providing me a service? No! It doesn’t exist anymore! I am interacting with lemmy.zips local copy of that community.
It’s exactly the same for a live instance. I am not submitting anything directly to the other instance. Instead I am submitting it to my home server, which is letting the remote server know about it.
You're literally just describing submitting content by proxy. Like, it cannot get any simpler. The only way this would not be submitting content by proxy would be if the home server you were submitting to had no connection to .world whatsoever, and the transfer of content to .world was done without the posting user's knowledge.
That is a simple fact about how federation works. Can you tell me at what point that user has interacted with lemmy.world’s website?
The moment they submitted content to a comm whose instance is Lemmy.world. "It went through their home instance first" is literally arguing that submitting content by proxy excuses one from ToS, which...
Fuck man, really, consult a lawyer. Or articles on Mastodon legal issues for instance hosts.
And all the good little fascists praise him for it.
At what point did the user “access” lemmy.world? Did their device connect to lemmy.world at any point during them making their posts? No. It did not. That’s not how federation works.
Why is 'their device' the magic piece of the puzzle for you? If you use a proxy, are you free from all ToS?
They submitted content to Lemmy.world. Fuck's sake.
It’s relevant because it shows that lemmy.world has no ownership or control over the original, which is where the barrier for a service would be. I’m not sure how i can make that any clearer.
You can't make it any clearer. Your position is clear. It's also nonsensical.
Again, I have no idea what you’re on about with the dick sucking. Saying I have no idea of the law while spouting totally irrelevant arguments is a touch disingenuous.
"Giving examples of services you haven't provided does not preclude what you have provided from being a service as well."
She was arrested by the Gestapo.
It won’t federate to anyone, it’s the Group actor that forwards content to subscribers.
Okay. So again, what's the problem? Everyone should be happy.
I think it is actually. If posting to lemmy.world comm, who then forwards that content to comm subs, makes me a user of lemmy.world’s service, then I don’t see how I wouldn’t be a user of Cloudfair’s services in that case. I’ve still technically initiated an interaction with Cloudfair servers, even if indirectly.
Because Cloudflare's whole deal is that they provide a service to sites, not users.
Humor me for a moment - if you go to a website, directly, do you have to abide by their terms of service?
Where are you getting the idea that I’m saying TOS shouldn’t be enforced? I’m not saying that, I’m disputing who it applies to.
You said, and I quote:
I just don’t think banning a remote user for TOS violation is a good one.
When you joined lemmy.world, you agreed to their ToS. I have not joined lemmy.world, therefore their ToS does not apply to me.
Except if you access Lemmy.world, as the ToS point out.
They owe me nothing, and cannot delete my account nor any of my users from lemmy.zip. they can ban my users from lemmy.world, remove their posts etc, but they’re only doing that to their copies of the posts. The original copies are on lemmy.zip and lemmy.worlds actions do not affect any other instances that has a copy of the lemmy.zip original.
... okay? How is any of that relevant?
Therefore they do not provide my users with a service.
This is like saying "I only made you a poster; I didn't suck your dick or do your taxes, so I didn't provide you a service."
You... really need to talk with a lawyer, man. I know Lemmy admins are amateurs, but this is insane.
Whether they get free meals or not, it’s literally their job.
You must live in a functioning country or something crazy like that.
You’re confusing a code of conduct which is applied to everyone with a terms of service, which i can only apply to people I offer a service to.
Like hosting their content?
Content like text posts?
Content that goes and is hosted on your servers when a user is federated and not banned from your instance?
I don’t hold your data,
See above
I can’t delete your account or prevent you from accessing your home server. I am not providing you a service in any way. It’s really that simple.
How does any of that preclude providing a service?
Your email thing is wrong btw. Emails can be banned (conduct) by another server, but the account can’t be deleted by the other server (service). You’re confusing the two.
... okay? .world hasn't 'deleted' the account in question? So either you're very confused about what has happened here, or your attempt at reconciling the email metaphor with your position has proved my point.
Federation between instances is like an archive in a state of flux. You can still access feddit.de content despite the service being down.
You aren't answering the question about posting content.
They didn’t go to lemmy.world with an account? They went to https://lemm.ee/c/fediverse@lemmy.world with a lemm.ee account.
Okay, well, they can still go there, it's just that their content no longer federates to lemmy.world. I guess everyone should be happy?
For my comment to reach you, it has to go through Cloudfair as lemmy.world uses them for DDoS protection. Am I subject to Cloudfair’s TOS?
That's not even close to equivalent. If the ToS for dbzer0 included, say, something ridiculous, like "Don't use the letter S", and you used the letter S, would you posting here be a violation of the ToS, or not? Regardless of whether you think the ToS is reasonable.
It’s perfectly within lemmy.world’s remit to ban a user for whatever reasons they feel like, I just don’t think banning a remote user for TOS violation is a good one.
If ToS aren't going to be enforced, you may as well not have them.
That’s irrelevant. The post wasn’t made via lemmy.zip. we have a copy of the post but the user didn’t interact at all with our website or our server. Their server did, not the user.
Fucking what.
If I write a poem and have someone slap it on the local bulletin board for me, have I not interacted with the bulletin board?
Furthermore, elsewhere you mention interacting as not being accessing (specifically mentioning that 'interacting' only has the CoC applied), but here you claim a lack of interaction as reason for non-enforcement of the ToS.
Again, email. If I have an Outlook account and send an email to a Gmail account, I’m not suddenly subject to the Gmail ToS.
Bruh, that's literally how it works. Why do you think email accounts from other services can be banned from sending to email services? Gmail can (and literally does) run a blocklist, however ineffective, of email accounts from other email services for violating their ToS.
They’re not making use of the service, though. That’s a misunderstanding. They’re making use of their home servers copy of the other servers community. The user isn’t directly using the remote service.
What happens when a user posts to that comm?
Does that user's post remain only on their home server's copy of the comm, or does it get federated to the comm they posted to?
Just replied to another of your comments, but in summary no. They’re not one of my users and I don’t hold any data on them nor do they access lemmy.zip directly.
Then the ToS don't apply to anyone except your own users? Those who are signed up on your instance, I mean?
Using lemmy.word to access content. Using https://feddit.uk/post/25339637 to view the content is making use of feddit.uk’s services, using https://lemmy.world/post/26548121 is making use of lemmy.world’s services. Would using an archive to access a lemmy.world post be making use of the service?
Can you post to Lemmy.world using an archive?
If not, the question seems of dubious relevance.
I wouldn’t say so, even going to lemmy.world without an account would be making use of the service in my mind.
But going to Lemmy.world with an account isn't making use of the service, so long as it's not a .world account?
No? Community spaces can still have rules that govern themselves (that’s why sidebars federate), it’s just that terms of service are for people making use of the service.
But if no user from another instance is ever using any of the instances they post to, save for their own, how can an admin have the right to ban them?
Not if they’re a federated user. They’re not my user to worry about. Even if they say they’re not 18 it doesn’t apply imo, they’re not interacting directly with lemmy.zip.
4.0.2: You are at least 18 years of age and over the regulated minimum age defined by your local law to access Lemmy.zip.
Does posting to Lemmy.zip not count as accessing?
himb thirsty
And I disagree that that counts as making use of the service.
... what does count as making use of the service, if not posting to the service's comms?
Is it impossible to make use of the service unless you're a user signed up on the service?
If so, should it be regarded that admins have no authority to bar any user from another instance from the admin's instance?
The White Rose was German, if memory serves. Zofia Posmysz here was involved with the Polish resistance.
4.0: By agreeing to this section of the document, you accept that:
4.0.0: You may only use Lemmy.zip if you can clearly understand and actively comply with the terms laid out on this page.
4.0.1: You have not previously been permanently banned from the website.
4.0.2: You are at least 18 years of age and over the regulated minimum age defined by your local law to access Lemmy.zip.
Sag wasn’t accessing or making active use of lemmy.world itself.
He posted on "Fediverse@lemmy.world"
I think i’m going with PTB from my pov. Tbf dbzer0 is pretty lax on rules, especially towards people outside the instance. I don’t think it’s within my place or anyone else’s to ban someone from such a huge part of the fediverse.
Then admins have no place banning people?
Ukrainian restaurant offering free borsht in celebration of Stalin's death, New York City, USA, 1953
Ukrainian restaurant offering free borsht in celebration of Stalin's death, New York City, USA, 1953
Ukrainian restaurant offering free borsht in celebration of Stalin's death, New York City, USA, 1953