(also takeover request) should locking and forced "merger" of communities be allowed?
(also takeover request) should locking and forced "merger" of communities be allowed?
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/1119656
The !android@lemmy.world community on this instance thrived for a while and reached almost 19k subscribers very rapidly and it was very active.
Recently the Reddit mods of r/Android created another community with a few hundred members on another different instance where they are mods and that one was then astroturfed on c/android by a person seemingly unrelated to that community's mods.
Apparently some discussions then took place between owners of both communities and the mods of !android@lemmy.world community then unilaterally closed the community, thus, according to their own sticky notice, succumbing to the flawed reasoning that the Reddit mods are "more experienced" and therefore the rightful representatives of an Android community.
I find this behavior sad and it just shouldn't be allowed here for two reasons:
- this sets the precedent for more Reddit mods to just come and claim "ownership" of communities by bullying existing ones into closing;
- does not respect the almost 19k subscribers who didn't even have a say in this, and especially those who had already expressed that they joined !android@lemmy.world because they did NOT want to be moderated by the old Reddit mods.
!android@lemmy.world needs to be reopened now and the mods removed since they expressed that they no longer want to moderate a community on lemmy.world.
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Part of the beauty of Lemmy is that you can just start a new community on a new instance. I don't like people referring to things as c/Something, because that community often exists on multiple instances. Sometimes very active on both/all. You can create a new community on another instance, with whatever rules you deem appropriate, and convince people to join you - which is what happened with !android@lemdro.id
Their logic seems pretty solid, though. The old Reddit mods didn't just claim ownership - they reached out to the !android@lemmy.world mods and made their case. The mods at !android@lemmy.world were completely free to tell them to piss off, or welcome them in, or whatever else. They chose this path, and laid out their reasons (although they weren't required to). You may not like it, or agree, but that's generally how mods are handled.
In fact, I see giving you the mod permissions as a hostile takeover by you. You were not a mod, they made their decision, and now you want to takeover all of their work.
Personally speaking, I don't agree with hostile takeovers. but honestly I feel something should be done about it. it sets a potential precedent where communities in other instances can make ghost communities and just park the name. In a perfect world, the new mods should be someone who was active in the community and not some random person who requested it but, honestly that is a lot of work, and if the moderation team didn't bother to want to do that work, I wouldn't see it unfit to have the admin team make the decision, be it nuke the community, or reassign another mod or something. Honestly though it's their instance, if they see it fit they could just choose to do nothing but, I feel it would be best for the instance to not have parked communities, especially big name communities such as Android that people would want to have as a community, it hinders growth of the instance (not that this instance is in dire need of more growth but long term)
I would be all for an addition of some sort of "Dead Community" policy(if there isn't one already, but I have not seen it). It could be as simple as communities that are intending to park have so many days before the community gets purged, or it could have a similar system that Facebook, Discord, Reddit(although they abused this policy) and other sites have where it's handled on a case by case basis upon a request being brought up.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts on this. I'd just like to clarify there was no hostile takeover! I posted a comment above with some more context, as I feel this is being somewhat misrepresented. Of course, Id welcome any reactions you have to it.
It's also worth noting that subreddit mergers weren't uncommon on reddit. Oftentimes two similar subreddits would merge as a way of combining moderation efforts (it's a lot easier to keep things in check with a larger team to cover more time zones). Despite all our gripes with how Reddit admin have been behaving as of late, even they didn't intervene on subreddit mergers by forcing one back open through redditrequest.
So you've made it clear that your position is that lemmy.world's community should be closed based on the whims of 2 people to allow for your 3 days old community to grow. Good to know where you stand.
Their work and the work of 18k other people that now have no say in the matter.
A valid point, but non-mods don't usually have a lot of say unless the mods choose to solicit input. It's a sign of bad mods to be sure, but one that happens all of the time. And of course, some mods will ask but just not listen.
they made their decision
2 out of 19k people made the unilateral decision for those 19k to close the community in total disrespect of those users who were very active and kept the community alive. They also do NOT have the right to deprive this instance from the c/android community name, that is the SAME as community parking. They have the right to leave but they do NOT have the right to close it for everybody else.
Let me ask a different question - let's say they had made a slightly different decision. Instead of moving to lemdr.id, let's say the mods of !android@lemmy.world decided to bring on board all of the former r/Android mods. Instead of an announcement that it was being moved to a different location, it was announcing (and welcoming) all of their new mods.
Is there anything really different about that scenario?
It's astonishing that you can't see how 2 people closing down the community for 19k people on a whim is simply wrong and EXACTLY THE SAME as community name parking (I'd argue it's even worse!). Community name parking is already NOT ALLOWED on lemmy.world.
And you consulted those 19k before attempting to take ownership?
Those 2 certainly didn't and they have no claim on that community anymore. As it stands right now, that community officially has no moderators and yes even if you'd apparently be happy to see it forcibly die instead, I perfectly have the right to volunteer to reopen !android@lemmy.world and then recruit mods from there, this is only fair for the 19k who were robbed of this community.
Wait he just asked a valid question though.
You keep speaking for the 19k, but you're wanting to make a move yourself without consulting them either.
Are you speaking for them or not?
I really think if we're going to talk about the 19k, the idea of a vote is probably what should've been done in retrospect
vote is probably what shouldโve been done in retrospect
The idea of a vote doesn't even make sense, because the democratic way to handle this would have been to keep the community open without forcing anyone to move. Those who want then to move can do so, nothing changes for them.
The way you're suggesting a vote here is analogous to a group of people voting to kill another group of people. That's not democratic.
You keep speaking for the 19k
I'm not. I'm advocating for opening the community again, which as I said earlier is the most democratic option after it was robbed from the 19k members. And yes, as the community is officially unmoderated, since the mods cannot have any claim on it after officially abandoning it, I have the right to volunteer to mod, as have others too obviously, and the admins can then choose.
Pointing this out also but I fail to see how "speaking for the 19k" is an issue if anything when reddit actually had a subreddit dedicated to requesting dead subreddits and or ones that modteams couldn't physically get back onto the sub, and it was and is insanely successful with the admins allowing a shit ton of them per day to be swapped around and in a lot of cases people were blatantly more happy to swap them around.
I swear Lemmy is so weird about this imo, people told me making a LGBTQ community was a bad idea because "I could just go to another community in another instance that was the highest rated" and now everyone is saying
"Oh it's just two clicks, go to another instance!!!111 or create another one1111!!!!!! U shouldn't be on Lemmy if you don't want communities to randomly close down"
It's the exact same shit awkwardtheturtle pulled where they modded hundreds of subreddits and universally just made completely batshit insane reasons because "they felt like it"
The difference is, Snoo is arguing that no it's pretty insane to universally make the decision people have to move when they shouldn't have to move in the first place
Yeah, sure, it takes the click of a button but what next, exactly? If a mod later down the line acts out (which as a reminder you can't dethrone mods on Lemmy yet, it has to be the site admins.) the users are just supposed to again go and "welp time to go create my own version of Android, and then someone else is going to create his own version of Android, and then another community."
That doesn't make much sense lol, you people can't both use the argument "oh if you don't like it create your own" then when people do, bitch about people creating their own and "just go to the biggest one in another instance!"
then say with android "Go to the new one it's two clicks!!!!111" it's hypocritical and fucking stupid.
_
This'll be the last time I talk about this until an admin responds personally. No point in arguing the same point repeatedly.
Not trying to argue any points but one of the good parts of running on lemdro.id is the Android community has a close connection with the admin(s) (me!). So it would be trivial to remove a mod if it came to it vs having to coordinate with already busy lemmy.world admins. My personal goal when starting lemdro.id was to help spread out the load so that federation can continue to flourish as Lemmy grows. As well as being a more focused instance to cater to the needs of technical communities.
So why not create your own? Or migrate to !android@lemmy.ml (already with 6k subs and very active), or !android@programming.dev (empty and dead). Why does it have to be the existing one?
Reddit was full of clone subs because of disagreeable mods. They had similar names (or at least recognizable names), but were run completely separate. You could also do that here, or start any name on (nearly) any instance you want.