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Who’s a little boy that pays people to have animals killed?
no one does that
Ok, i get it, it's fun to hate on the vegan, but he's right and you're not.
If you buy meat somewhere part of the price is you paying for the person that killed it. That's obvious right?
Of course in relation to the cat, even if there's a healthy vegan diet possible, he's wrong imo. Why force our choices onto pets?
If you buy meat somewhere part of the price is you paying for the person that killed it.
no. that person is already paid and paid by somebody who is not me
The premise is what matters, which is that you like to eat meat. Because of this, let's say a chicken company has decided they will kill a chicken so that you can buy it. Your actions cause an incentive to kill animals, and so someone does and sells it to you.
You could kill it yourself, but like you said, you are no murderer, so you pay a company to do it for you and then you get to feel like you aren't a murderer. What a deal!
People dont eat meat because companies produce it, companies produce it because people eat it. Therefore the blame lies with those that eat it, which also means the best way to reduce animal deaths is to stop eating meat so that companies will produce less of it.
Eventually, they might stop producing it at any meaningful scale altogether, once enough people reduce or stop their consumption of meat.
People dont eat meat because companies produce it, companies produce it because people eat it
i don't know how you would go about trying to disprove this claim.
you pay a company to do it for you
i have never done that.
I'm sort of confused what you think buying a product from a company means? The price they charge is to cover all of the costs they spent to produce it plus a profit. You are paying a company to make whatever good you buy from them by purchasing the item, they've just premade it for convenience. They do take a risk that they assumed wrong and the people they thought would buy it don't. When that happens they reduce supply or make something else that those people do want.
Its a relationship essentially and I dont think its possible to assign responsibility to a single side of the relationship. Ultimately its both the companies fault for offering to supply it, and the customers fault for offering to buy it.
Its very similar to why its so hard to decide who to blame when looking at a drug dealer selling to a drug addict. The answer is they are two sides of the same coin, and neither would exist without the other.
I understand you want proof but I think all I can offer is philosophy or whatever we want to call it. This whole concept is important to how I make decisions and I will stand by it until someone can reason me out of it.
Unfortunately I'm having a lot of trouble following the logic of your position. For me it falls apart as soon as I try to think a few steps past the immediate action of buying pre packaged meet in a store, and what those actions lead to.
Its a relationship essentially and I dont think its possible to assign responsibility to a single side of the relationship.
everyone is responsible for their own actions
Only if you dont ever interact with another person directly or indirectly. I will accept you could live this way but I wouldnt be able to apply that type of moral system to one where I need to consider those around me as well as myself.
i feel no responsibility for what the animal agriculture industry does, and if i did, to stop it, i wouldn't go vegan. i'd buy bolt cutters.
Isnt that just as futile as going vegan? Or do you mean like taking the animals and raising them yourself? Or letting them free in the wild I guess?
Either way any actions you take with a bolt cutter, that line on the graph you showed me will keep going up.
Maybe you mean you'd personally save the animals you felt responsible for?
Isnt that just as futile as going vegan?
no. direct action gets the goods. if you want to save animals, you need to go where the animals are and save them.
that line on the graph you showed me will keep going up.
impossible. if the animals are not in the pen to be slaughtered, they cannot be counted toward meat production.
You are paying a company to make whatever good you buy from them by purchasing the item, they’ve just premade it for convenience.
no. i'm paying them for the good. when you stopped buying meat, did the companies you bought it from stop selling it?
No but that wasnt my goal. The goal is to get people to reduce meat consumption at least to some level of healthy as right now its a major cause of a bunch of illnesses and diseases. If you are responsible for someone else's diet its sort of crazy to not have them eat whatever will make them feel best, which is usually whole food and plant based.
Not everyone is able to do that of course. I personally dont think its possible to get to a point where animals aren't ever killed for food, but I would like to see a point where factory farms do not exist.
Not every vegan is black and white with it.
They do take a risk that they assumed wrong and the people they thought would buy it don’t. When that happens they reduce supply or make something else that those people do want.
they can choose to reduce their supply for any number of reasons. i'm not responsible for their decision.
If you were to go to your grocery store every week and buy 100 chickens, they would increase production specifically for you. If they then sent out a notice to your grocery store that said "due to Commie buying so many chickens we have increased our crop of chickens to accommodate, all hail Commie the chicken slayer".
Would you consider yourself responsible at all or thats still the companies choice to produce the chickens for you or not. Should I be mad that they would increase their production for you rather than I should be mad that you are buying so many chickens?
It seems like you are sort of hiding behind the small scale of it all. Like you are so small and minor on the whole system you can't possibly matter, so you dont. Is that accurate?
you are so small and minor on the whole system you can’t possibly matter, so you dont.
this is true, but it's not what i'm saying. what i'm saying is that i don't decide whether or how many chickens are killed. someone else does, and they are responsible for their own decisions.
Would you consider yourself responsible at all
no. they make their own choices.
the best way to reduce animal deaths is to stop eating meat
have you tried that?
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/meat-production-tonnes?tab=chart&country=~OWID_WRL
Yes I also understand not every country is in a position to be plant based, its a transition that takes time. The numbers I'm most interested in seeing is percentage of the population that is vegan and whether that percentage goes up or not.
Your actions cause an incentive to kill animals, and so someone does and sells it to you.
people's actions are not caused by incentives. they are caused by our will. i don't decide for others whether to kill chickens. tehy decide for themselves.
Peoples actions are caused by rewards. When you do something and are rewarded either externally (other people, nature, etc.) or internally (self-reward) which then causes you to want to repeat the actions. Its cyclical, and you can't have the action without the reward or the system breaks and the action stops being rewarded. If you do this cycle long enough, you will learn a habit that no longer requires the type of reward to sustain.
You buy meat, reward company with money, company is happy and decides to do it again, rinse and repeat. You can't have one without the other so the company is just as responsible for selling as you are for buying. Either of you could break the cycle but neither wants to.
Thats why vegans try to show a good example and share their reasoning and discuss things, because this is what breaks harmful cycles and habits.
You buy meat, reward company with money,
the company is paid long before i walk into the grocery store.
Peoples actions are caused by rewards.
no. tehy are caused by the will of the person. they can choose to do otherwise. i do not make their choice for them.
Yeah, try that one in court. No your honor, i didn't pay for the murder, i paid for someone who paid for someone to commit the murder. I'm obviously innocent!
It's a plain stupid argument to try and make, and it makes no sense. And i'm not even vegan, i just recognize that yes, a part of the money i pay for meat goes to who kills it, so i pay for someone to kill animals for me so i can eat them. That's how the world works, and denying that is just ridiculous.
No your honor, i didn’t pay for the murder, i paid for someone who paid for someone to commit the murder. I’m obviously innocent!
i would be innocent. i had nothing to do with any of their decisions, and only much later did i pay anyone, but not the people responsible.
your analogy doesn't reflect the reality at all. a more apt analogy would be that someone paid to have their grandfather murdered, and later had an estate sale. at that estate sale, if i buy a watch, am i responsible for murder? no.
And i’m not even vegan, i just recognize that yes, a part of the money i pay for meat goes to who kills it
no, it doesn't. that person was already paid.
It’s a plain stupid argument to try and make, and it makes no sense.
it's obvious you can't suss it out, but the rest of us have had a pretty good conversation about it til you showed up.
We already force our cats to eat the canned food and dry kibble we provide them. The standard cat diet is just not healthy to start with, which is what opens the conversation to "what food would make my cat healthy" and then if you are already there, its not much of a stretch to consider ALL types of foods so that we are sure to find the best result.
If vegan food for cats is possible without reducing the cats quality of life, then its worth trying. Most cats just plain dont like the vegan food though, and no vegan would force their CST to be unhappy just to make them vegan.
The whole point is to improve the cats life, not to force our morals on them. If it was possible for your cat to live 25% longer on a vegan diet, would it be abusive not to even consider it? (Not saying that's a settled fact, its a thought exercise).
It even comes packaged, with a price on it.. And you choose "yes i want murder" when you put it in your little basket..
your version of the story leaves out some important facts like it doesn't matter whether you put it in your cart because it's already dead, and the person who killed it was already paid by somebody who wasn't you.
That is pretty irrelevant. You purchasing the product signals a certain demand for it, that demand will help determine how much product is requested in the future, there is a cascading effect all the way up the supply chain. Sure an additional chicken might not be bred just because you purchased a chicken, it's way more abstract than that. Maybe if a hundred more chickens are bought then a hundred more chickens will be bred as replacements plus extra to account for growth and failed product (dead or sick chickens). And if you were one of the hundred people who purchased a chicken you can be seen as one hundredth responsible for at least a hundred chickens which is the same as being responsible for the 1+ chicken. Do you think if nobody purchased chickens that they would just keep stocking the shelves?
Do you think if nobody purchased chickens that they would just keep stocking the shelves?
do you have a plan to get no one to purchase chickens?
That's not important. I was illustrating that clearly if nobody ate chicken nobody would harvest chickens for food. Unless you think that the same amount of chickens will be harvested until the very last human gives up chicken then you have to acknowledge that the individual consumer does make a difference.
Unless you think that the same amount of chickens will be harvested until the very last human gives up chicken then you have to acknowledge that the individual consumer does make a difference.
no, i don't
Yes increasing awareness amongst our social groups about the benefits of vegan diets and the detriments of meat based diets. Most people want to be healthy.
The meat industry has a large effect on pollution a well, and affects the environment in many ways in water and on land.
Everyone's not vegan until they decide to be, I was a meat eat for 30 years before I made the decision, I understand its not easy or quick.
Some people just need to live in proximity with a vegan so they can learn by watching. The general public still has a lot of animosity towards vegans and especially vegan activists (and environmental activists as well, when they bring up meat). Sort of similar to how proximity dispels racism in a lot of ways.
good luck.
if you were one of the hundred people who purchased a chicken you can be seen as one hundredth responsible for at least a hundred chickens which is the same as being responsible for the 1+ chicken.
i'm not responsible for others decisions at all.
You purchasing the product signals a certain demand for it, that demand will help determine how much product is requested in the future,
this is not causal. someone decides whether or how much of a product to purchase. they have free will. i am not responsible for their decision.
If you don't eat chicken nobody is going to swoop in and eat all the chicken you don't eat. However if a farmer or farming corporation decides to stop harvesting chickens then it's almost certain some entity will swoop in to replace them in the market. So acting like the consumer here is not one of the if not the most important part in this causal chain is just naive.
If you don’t eat chicken nobody is going to swoop in and eat all the chicken you don’t eat. However if a farmer or farming corporation decides to stop harvesting chickens then it’s almost certain some entity will swoop in to replace them in the market.
why do you tihnk both these sentences are true, and how would you go about trying to disprove either of them?
in this causal chain is just naive.
there is no causal chain.
So while you are eating said chicken, you are thinking "I'm not responsible for what happened to this bird?"
Is it the same as roadkill to you? Like it just so happened to be dead and nearby?
How about this: if person A murders person B, and then sells the meat to person C to consume, are both persons A and C responsible for murder or just A? What if person C is in the room when person B is murdered and butchered, does that change the answer? What if person C lives in another country and the meat is shipped to them, any change then?
I'd ask you to honestly consider that instead of discounting it for replacing animals with humans.
Is it the same as roadkill to you? Like it just so happened to be dead and nearby?
that's pretty apt, yea.
Well thats consistent at least. Would you care much if companies stopped selling meat?
Would you care much if companies stopped selling meat?
i doubt it. i have drunk a lot of soylent and huel in my time. i'm open to all kinds of food, i just buy what's at the corner of Cheap and Convenient
Well thats about as neutral as you can get on the issue, I can respect that, and I dont think your perspective actually does drive animal deaths.
Do you carry this perspective just for yourself mainly or do you think that it would be better if more people felt similarly as you?
Its an odd question but I ask because sometimes I struggle between an idea that works for me personally but would be mayhem if everyone else thought that way too.
your analogy is disanalagous to how people decide whether to buy meat entirely. even in the first case, though, of course their not responsible. the others, it's not clear to me whether there is any other actual conspiracy. regardless, no such conspiracy exists in the grocery store.
The point of the the thought experiment is to allow you to view the situations without the biases you already have, as most people have been in a butcher shop which is the first situation I described, and most people have had food delivered to them from far away which is the second situation I described. Since those are normal things, your initial thought would likely be that they are normal and not murder.
If you replace it with humans, I would argue that both situations would be murder for person C because there is no way they could reasonably assume they could get human meat without a person being killed and it taken from them.
In other words there is no eating a cooked dead chicken carcass without killing a chicken.
If you replace it with humans, I would argue that both situations would be murder for person C because there is no way they could reasonably assume they could get human meat without a person being killed and it taken from them.
there was some ambiguity in how you phrased it whether the person buying even knew it was human meat. regardless, they are not responsible for the actions of other people in the past.
I really wish you could expand on that last bit "not responsible for actions of those in the past".
To me it sounds like you are saying it goes like this:
- Person kills animal and sends meat to store.
- Another person goes to store and buys it.
And so since its in the past and a different person, person 2 shouldnt feel like they caused what person 1 did.
The reason it doesnt make sense to me is I see it like this:
- Producer kills animal and sends meat to store.
- Purchaser goes to store and buys it.
- Producer reviews how many sold and sets that as their quota, proceeds to kill that many animals for sale, plus some extra in case of growth or supply chain issues, sends out to store.
- Purchaser goes to store and buys it Repeat steps 3 and 4.
Since the purchaser has an effect on the seller due to the unique relationship they have, if the purchaser feels there is a moral imperative to protect animals then they should come to the conclusion that if they stop buying meat then that will remove the incentive to kill animals that they are adding into the relationship.
It won't stop all animals being killed, but it will result in less animals being killed had I chosen to continue eating meat.
it will result in less animals being killed
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/meat-production-tonnes?tab=chart&country=~OWID_WRL
you know that has not happened
That's a very basic and low IQ comment. I suggest you look up how economics work. Just because it's there doesn't mean that your money doesn't pay for the next. That's how it always works. If nobody wants some animal killing then they won't be killed. Pretty simple.
That’s a very basic and low IQ comment. I suggest you look up how economics work.
this is handwaving, not evidence for your position
Then don't use that stupid argument.
You think iPhones are "already made" and it won't make Apple a big company if you buy one?
I haven't made an argument. I'm rebutting yours. this, too, is not evidence for your position
Oh no, I'm just so used to that stupid "question" or "statement" that it's become obvious it's absolutely meaningless.
My answer is this: You're paying for them to kill the next one. So "already dead" is ignorant if you don't know how linear time works.
iphones were made before anyone ever bought one. that's how linear time works.
Oh no, I'm just so used to that stupid "question" or "statement" that it's become obvious it's absolutely meaningless.
My answer is this: You're paying for them to kill the next one. So "already dead" is ignorant if you don't know how linear time works.
it's a legitimate objection unless you can show causation
You should use your knowledge in words for something productive instead.
if you don't have evidence for your position, that is good reason to suspect it is not valid. a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, after all.
animals were killed for food long before money. there is no reason to think it will ever stop
And now we have perfect biological studies to show you that you don't need it.
you don't know what I need
I think you need a hug judging by how you act.
If nobody wants some animal killing
do you have a plan to achieve this? I'll help. let me know when I'm the last one.
What are you saying? Keep your ignorant sarcasm for yourself if you can, please.
I'm being earnest