Trump refuses to say if he wants Ukraine to win the war
Trump refuses to say if he wants Ukraine to win the war
During the first presidential debate, the former president said he wanted the "war to stop" when asked if he wanted Ukraine to win against Russia.
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If you’re not even a pacifist, then maybe defer to them to define it.
This is nonsense. Suppose I eat meat, but I call myself a vegan. If you're not a vegan, then should you defer to me on how to define what a vegan is?
If pacifism does not mean opposition to war, then sure, I'm a pacifist, why not. We're all pacifists. It means literally nothing.
Your first link actually provides a neat little term for people who want to tell everyone how much they love peace while supporting war - "Pacificism." "A useful term to describe those who prefer peaceful conditions to war but who accept that some wars may be necessary if they advance the cause of peace." I don't think I've ever met a single person in my life who doesn't meet that description - except, I suppose, actual pacifists. Dick fucking Cheney is a "Pacificist." Completely meaningless.
Your second source I can't access beyond the first page. Your third source does raise a valid point, I stand corrected.
I do not support the war in Ukraine, not because I'm a pacifist, but because I'm a communist. There is substantial overlap between the two, but the main difference is that I make an exception for wars along class lines, which this isn't. The common people are being drafted against their will to fight a pointless war over which reactionary government controls a patch of land.
If a person uses a term you don't think fits them you should ask them about their definition of it. It's not up to you to decide what labels people are allowed to apply to themselves. At best your complaint is about people not using a word "correctly" even though that's not how words work.
For example, you call yourself a Communist but appear to be supporting the government of Russia in their actions by attempting to discourage Ukraine from defending itself and its citizens. Communism is anti-state by definition, do I get to tell you you're not an actual communist? Or would it be better for me to ask you about your definition and get to understand the nuances of your position?
Do the people drafted to go across a border and bomb civilians and the people drafted to stay in their country and defend it against an opposing army have the same morality behind it? Can you understand how one of those actions might be more justified than the other? How one of them could be violence in the hope of future peace for others vs violence in hope of gaining more land and more bodies for the meat-grinder?
If your county was invaded by what you see as a great evil because of their actions against civilians (I'm just going to assume the US would fit that from your perspective) would you say it was immoral to fight back in the hopes of lowering civilian deaths and injustice after the land is taken?
If a person uses a term you don’t think fits them you should ask them about their definition of it. It’s not up to you to decide what labels people are allowed to apply to themselves. At best your complaint is about people not using a word “correctly” even though that’s not how words work.
Language is a cooperative process, and if you use words in an incoherent or misleading way, it can create needless confusion and a breakdown of communication. At some point, "creative use of labels" can verge into just lying. If you tell me you're a Christian but then later I find out that you meant you're the type of Christian that worships Satan, then I don't know how I'm supposed to interpret that other than as a lie. Just because language can change over time doesn't give you license to just say whatever.
For example, you call yourself a Communist but appear to be supporting the government of Russia in their actions by attempting to discourage Ukraine from defending itself and its citizens. Communism is anti-state by definition, do I get to tell you you’re not an actual communist? Or would it be better for me to ask you about your definition and get to understand the nuances of your position?
I'd be happy to get into the reeds of communist theory and explain how my positions on the subject are influenced by Lenin's writings, for example, his concept of "Revolutionary Defeatism" in the context of WWI. I could also cite his works on the role of the state, which is in turn based on the writings of Marx and Engles.
Also, just find it kind of odd to say that discouraging someone from fighting is supporting the other side, in a discussion about pacifism where that criticism has frequently been used historically as a way to attack pacifists. What was that Goebbles quote?
"All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Do the people drafted to go across a border and bomb civilians and the people drafted to stay in their country and defend it against an opposing army have the same morality behind it? Can you understand how one of those actions might be more justified than the other?
Sorry, which war are we talking about where only one side bombed civilians? Because Ukraine was shelling cities in Donbass before Russia entered the war. So then, crossing borders, well, there's all sorts of assumptions baked into that. If, purely hypothetically, you considered the separatists as the legitimate government of the disputed territories, then Russia would be there by invitation while Ukraine is crossing their borders. So that means it's necessary to determine what makes a government legitimate. And it seems to me that whatever political philosophy we employ to determine the legitimacy of a state is going to determine when violence is acceptable, which is a whole big can of worms. So on one side, Ukraine is defending their historical territorial borders, but on the other hand, the separatists are claiming to represent the popular will of the people who live there.
And there's the problem with this whole thing is that virtually nobody comes out and says, "I'm the aggressor, I'm taking this land because I want it." Every side in every conflict claims to be defending, or seeking long term peace. When the US invaded the Middle East, what did they say? They said it was a "Preemptive war" and that "if we don't fight them over there, we'll be fighting them over here." Of course, they could also point to 9/11 to show that the other side bombed civilians. Of course, what did bin Laden say? He said that he was responding to US actions, bombing civilians in the Middle East.
Here's a challenge: give me any side in any conflict and I will justify it from a "Pacificist" perspective.
If your county was invaded by what you see as a great evil because of their actions against civilians (I’m just going to assume the US would fit that from your perspective) would you say it was immoral to fight back in the hopes of lowering civilian deaths and injustice after the land is taken?
I live in the US, so it'd be a bit hard for it to invade.
It's possible to generate a hypothetical in which I would fight against an invading force, but that doesn't mean that that hypothetical reflects any real world situation.
Words are tools. As long as both parties understand the meaning behind them, they are useful. If you don't understand the way someone is using a term, ask them. You don't get to tell them it's wrong, there are no wrong ways to use words as long as both parties understand the meaning.
I don't give a shit at all about your understanding of Communism other than as an example about how rude and condescending it is to tell other people that they are using words wrong. While I don't think you are an actual communist by my definition, you are free to use the word to describe yourself based on your definition.
How did I know this would turn into a parade of Russia apologia. If you can't see the difference between an army bombing violent separatists armed and given orders by a hostile neighbor and troops fighting back against that neighbor after it invades I can't help you. Maybe get your eyes checked. If you can't tell the difference between troops crossing into another country in order to bomb civilians and take control of land and troops fighting them back to regain land and save the civilians from the invaders I can't help you. It's not my fault that you are incapable of seeing the very obvious harm caused by Russia's invasions.
As long as you accept that there is a possible situation where fighting back against an invading force is good then your whole argument about the definition of pacifism is mute. You aren't one and have no stake in that conversation at all, other than to obfuscate your actual position. "Ukraine bad because west, Russia not as bad because they used to wear red. Find any excuse possible to have Ukraine stop defending themselves." That's all this is. Why not just have the balls to say what you really think? Why not just say "Ukraine should stop defending itself because I think autocratic governments that used to be socialist are preferable to western democracies because America bad"?
Words are tools. As long as both parties understand the meaning behind them, they are useful. If you don’t understand the way someone is using a term, ask them. You don’t get to tell them it’s wrong, there are no wrong ways to use words as long as both parties understand the meaning.
So let me make sure I've got this right.
I go out and murder someone in cold blood. People call me a murderer. I tell them that I'm not a murderer - yes, I did take an innocent life by choice, but I don't like the way "murderer" sounds, so I don't apply it to myself. You don't get to decide what terms apply to me.
Got it. For the rest of this conversation, let "Nobel Prize winner" be defined as, "Lemmy.ml user." I am a Nobel Prize winner, we both understand how I'm using the term, so it's valid and you don't get to tell me otherwise.
As a Nobel Prize winner, I think this is completely ridiculous.
How did I know this would turn into a parade of Russia apologia. If you can’t see the difference between an army bombing violent separatists armed and given orders by a hostile neighbor and troops fighting back against that neighbor after it invades I can’t help you.
So should I automatically oppose all separatists who accept help from other countries? I don't agree with that. I think the question of when succession is justified is a complex and nuanced issue.
As far as I can tell, you are exclusively opposed to violence when it's your nation's geopolitical enemies doing it, and you have no problem with your side even firing on civilian targets. The same as pretty much anyone else, no matter where you go.
As long as you accept that there is a possible situation where fighting back against an invading force is good then your whole argument about the definition of pacifism is mute. You aren’t one and have no stake in that conversation at all, other than to obfuscate your actual position. “Ukraine bad because west, Russia not as bad because they used to wear red. Find any excuse possible to have Ukraine stop defending themselves.” That’s all this is. Why not just have the balls to say what you really think? Why not just say “Ukraine should stop defending itself because I think autocratic governments that used to be socialist are preferable to western democracies because America bad”?
It's very funny to me that for all your claims about respecting the labels people apply to themselves, you go on to put a bunch of words in my mouth and assign positions to me that I don't hold and have not said anything remotely similar to.
As long as we both understand the definitions being used there is no issue here. Again, you seem to think that words have objective meaning and that uses outside of that are "wrong". That's not how words work. You can call yourself a noble prize winner in this conversation since I know what you mean, but might have a harder time once you try that with someone else who doesn't know your definition. Your argument isn't a gotcha just because you think it sounds ridiculous.
I haven't said anything about my positions on any topic. I'm not sure how you gathered what I support. I have called out your ridiculous attempt to define pacifism in a way that most self-identitfied pacifists don't, claim that others are using it wrong, claim that the definition from an authoritative source is wrong because you don't like it, and now collapsed into "I guess all words are meaningless then". It's not my problem that you don't understand how words work.
You said you are a communist, you talked about following Lenin, you have been doing everything you can to justify why Ukraine should not fight back against the aggressor in this conflict. I don't have a reach very far to find your actual opinions on things. If you think I'm wrong, you can correct me. I didn't assign any label to you or tell you what words you can or cannot use. I extrapolated from what you have given so far, which is a defense of everything Russia has done and a sideways condemnation of everything Ukraine has done. Add a splash of references to Lenin and complaints about America bad, what else do you think someone reading this thread is going to see?
Are you saying you don't support Russia? That Ukraine should continue to fight against their invaders? Of course not!
Just man-up and state your positions with gusto. Why do people in your camp always play the same "I'm just asking questions, I have no opinions" bullshit the right always plays? Just say it. Just say "America bad, Ukraine bad because America supports them, Russia good because America doesn't like them."
As long as we both understand the definitions being used there is no issue here. Again, you seem to think that words have objective meaning and that uses outside of that are “wrong”. That’s not how words work. You can call yourself a noble prize winner in this conversation since I know what you mean, but might have a harder time once you try that with someone else who doesn’t know your definition. Your argument isn’t a gotcha just because you think it sounds ridiculous.
OK, great! So, if you accept that I'm a Nobel Prize winner, then for the rest of this conversation, let's use "Nazi Germany" whenever we're talking about Ukraine. Sound good? Exactly how far are you willing to roll with this?
You seem to think that I don't understand that language is mutable and collectively defined. I understand that just fine. What I also understand is that language can be used as a tool of manipulation. I've picked absurd examples hoping to illustrate that point, which you seem to be failing to understand. Yes, you can understand what I mean if I define terms differently, but if you give me license to define terms however I want, then I could make all sorts of unreasonable things sound reasonable. If you're really committed to this stubborn, inane exercise to prove that language doesn't matter, then I can go through the effort of redefining terms until your positions sound equal parts absurd and vile, but that seems like quite a bit of effort to prove a point that should be obvious.
You said you are a communist, you talked about following Lenin, you have been doing everything you can to justify why Ukraine should not fight back against the aggressor in this conflict. I don’t have a reach very far to find your actual opinions on things.
You literally made everything up whole cloth, and the positions you made up for me were obviously absurd and incoherent.
I didn’t assign any label to you or tell you what words you can or cannot use.
Oh, I see. So the rule that I get to have complete control about which things apply to me or don't only applies specifically to things that are phrased as labels. Truly fascinating. Where does the line get drawn, exactly? You can't call someone a murderer because that's a label, but you can say that they murdered someone, because that's not a label (even though it means the same thing), but what if you call them "A person who murders people?" Does that count as a label? What is it that's so special about labels that gives them this special quality that doesn't apply to other words?
Are you saying you don’t support Russia?
No, I don't, they should seek peace.
That Ukraine should continue to fight against their invaders?
No, they should seek peace.
Of course not!
Incorrect.
Just man-up and state your positions with gusto.
I have. The "secret positions" that I'm supposedly hiding are entirely your invention.
You seem to think that I don't understand that language is mutable and collectively defined.
You literally still don't get it. It's not that it can change and is collectively defined, it's that language is entirely defined by the meanings used by the specific members of the conversation. General uses and society at large have nothing to do with it.
What I also understand is that language can be used as a tool of manipulation.
Ahhh ok. So you think it's manipulative to use a word like pacifism if they don't use it the way you, a person who isn't a pacifist and has apparently never looked up the definition or works discussing it before, define it. Got it. Good to know your intuition about what a word means is the gold standard of what other people can do without being manipulative.
You literally made everything up whole cloth, and the positions you made up for me were obviously absurd and incoherent.
Oh, so you didn't say any of those things? You didn't say you were a communist? You didn't reference Lenin? Are you trying to say that you haven't been excusing Russia's actions (like talking about "Ukraine bombing civilians in the Donbas" ) and trying to argue against Ukraine's? You know your previous comments are still visible, right?
Are you saying you don’t support Russia?
No, they should seek peace.
That Ukraine should continue to fight against their invaders?
No, they should seek peace.
Of course not!
Incorrect.
I love that you think that using the same words would imply that you think they are on equal footing. They aren't. If Ukraine wants peace, they will continue to fight for peace. What you really mean is that they should capitulate so that Russia gets to keep the land they stole and rule over the citizens they haven't raped, kidnapped or killed yet. If Russia wants peace they can fuck off back to their own country. I love that you somehow think that both are equally wrong in a situation where one autocratic government invaded a democratic neighbor and continues to attempt to steal land and rape and murder civilians.
Just man-up and state your positions with gusto.
I have. The "secret positions" that I'm supposedly hiding are entirely your invention
Cool. So we're just going back to pretending that you've been commenting on this thread for hours because you really have no opinions whatsoever. You were just asking questions! Good to see you upholding the long-standing tradition of Nazi apologists and MLs alike of hiding your true positions because you're incapable of defending them!
How on earth does being a communist and referencing Lenin have anything to do with the positions you invented for me?
Ukraine shelling civilians in Donbass is an objective fact. You tried to draw a moral line based on civilian casualties, and I pointed out that that was inconsistent. I presented Russia's perspective to demonstrate the fact that your version of "pacifism" is completely meaningless, and that by your standards, you could still call yourself a pacifist while taking any side in any conflict. I offered to demonstrate this with other conflicts, but you ignored that. I was looking forward to what you would pick, I'm pretty sure I could make a decent argument for fighting alongside Ghengis Khan being "pacifist."
Your definition of pacifism is indeed meaningless, manipulative, and self-aggrandizing, intending to steal valor from the association with people who actually stand by their strongly held moral convictions against violence.
"yOu KnOw YoUr PrEvIoUs CoMmEnTs ArE sTiLl ViSiBlE, rIgHt?" God you people can be insufferable. I stand by everything I said in my previous comments, none of which in any way contracts what I'm saying.
I love that you somehow think that both are equally wrong
Again, putting words in my mouth, inventing positions whole cloth based on nothing and assigning them to me. You sure like assigning things to people just so long as they don't happen to be phrased as labels, huh?
Cool. So we’re just going back to pretending that you’ve been commenting on this thread for hours because you really have no opinions whatsoever
Obviously not. I've stated my positions numerous times. I even offered to explain the theoretical influences behind my positions. This time, you're taking words out of my mouth lmao. I guess that's a nice change of pace.
your version of "pacifism" is completely meaningless, and that by your standards, you could still call yourself a pacifist while taking any side in any conflict.
Hey buddy, I'm not a pacifist. Never claimed to be one. I also never provided a personal definition of pacifism. You are the one who said that the encyclopedia of philosophy must be wrong in their definition because you don't like it. You are the one trying to condense a topic of much discussion for thousands of years into a black and white "for or against violence in all forms" kind of pacifism. If you don't like the definition, take it up with the people who wrote them and the people who have argued over the specifics for thousands of years. Once again, someone is not not a pacifist simply because you don't agree with their definition. Your definition of pacifism is identical to appeasement.
Your definition of pacifism is indeed meaningless, manipulative, and self-aggrandizing, intending to steal valor from the association with people who actually stand by their strongly held moral convictions against violence.
Lol. Yes, listening to the people who believe a thing and explaining how it's complicated to an outsider intent on painting it in black and white terms is totally stolen valor. Jesus Christ dude, get over yourself. You're not a vanguard. Just because you want appeasement in this conflict doesn't mean anyone else should give a shit about your opinions, especially considering that you didn't even know there was debate about this among pacifists until today. You don't get to define that term for them.
yOu KnOw YoUr PrEvIoUs CoMmEnTs ArE sTiLl ViSiBlE, rIgHt?" God you people can be insufferable. I stand by everything I said in my previous comments, none of which in any way contracts what I'm saying.
Ya, it's totally me that's been an insufferable cunt this whole conversation. Definitely. And you totally didn't say "I'm a communist" or "I look to Lenin" in your previous comments. Got it.
How on earth does being a communist and referencing Lenin have anything to do with the positions you invented for me?
Oh ya, it's totally a coincidence that you have been shilling for Russia this whole conversation, identified as a communist, referenced Lenin as an authority, and said Ukraine should "seek peace." Totally unrelated things that definitely have no connection whatsoever. You think I was born yesterday? You think this is the first time I've interacted with a tankie too chicken-shit to say their true opinions?
Look I'll show you what it looks like to have conviction in your opinions:
People like you are a plague on the movement to make a better world. Your insistence on providing support and cover for totalitarian ass-holes with red paint makes it impossible for anyone to take actual socialists and communists seriously. Your defense of genocide and war crimes shows the rest of the world that people like you don't actually want a better world, you want one where American doesn't exist, even if every civilian on earth had a worse quality of life. You make actual change impossible by pretending that you will one day have enough influence for "the revolution" while doing shit-all to actually make things better in the mean time. You reject democracy and anything that would help people now and are somehow delusional enough to think that if we let people get fucked over enough we will have our "revolution" in a way that totally wouldn't result in far worse outcomes for everyone. You are larping and it hurts the people who actually give a shit about making things better now on the road to making them even better later. You are the reason that our movement is forever chained around the neck to the failures of the past. Men who claimed to want to support the workers of the world while killing and disappearing anyone who got in the way of their personal pursuit of power.
Again, putting words in my mouth, inventing positions whole cloth based on nothing and assigning them to me. You sure like assigning things to people just so long as they don't happen to be phrased as labels, huh?
What the fuck did you mean by "Russia should seek peace" then? If they want peace they can fuck off! They don't need to seek anything, they need to get fucked. By painting both sides of this as equally needing to "seek peace" you are creating the image that they are morally equal. Combine that with your weak-ass attempt at what-abouting the Donbas shows me all I need to know.
Obviously not. I've stated my positions numerous times. I even offered to explain the theoretical influences behind my positions. This time, you're taking words out of my mouth lmao. I guess that's a nice change of pace.
No one cares about the "theoretical influences" of your opinions. You've been "just asking questions" while defending Russia and claiming Ukraine should stop defending itself. Constantly trying to act like both parties are equally wrong and both should just stop fighting the other. One party started this war by invading the other. One party has been documented kidnapping, raping, and killing civilians. One party has had to make mass graves. One party has been condemned by practically every other country for their abhorrent actions in this war, the other hasn't.
It appears that I don't need to be present for this conversation, you just want to rant and rave at ghosts and the strawman you've invented in your head out of nothing. You have fun with that.
And you totally didn’t say “I’m a communist” or “I look to Lenin” in your previous comments. Got it.
How on earth does being a communist and referencing Lenin have anything to do with the positions you invented for me?
Literally right next to each other. Incredible source of comedy.
Btw, if I didn't know better, I'd say you just assigned the label of "tankie" to me. What happened to everyone getting complete control over what labels apply to them 🤔