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Can you please respond in good-faith? My point is that market economies can exist within a broader Socialist economy, and that as the private sector develops into monopolist syndicates, it makes itself ready for public ownership and central planning, a strategy we can watch in real time in AES states.
Can you please explain your interpretation of Engels here?
Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke?
No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
It's Flying Squid, I don't recommend engaging.
I know, but it's useful for liberals to see someone so adamantly argue in clear bad-faith against someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Flying Squid normally gives up and walks off.
someone so adamantly argue in clear bad-faith against someone who actually knows what they are talking about
To be fair, it is working really well.
It did last time as well, in my opinion. I'll likely never convince Flying Squid, but indirectly they will help me convince others.
Market economies? The thing you said need to be gotten rid of, but not via democratic means?
So if a socialist revolution doesn't get rid of the problem of capitalism, what does?
Market economies can be rid of by degree once a Socialist state is established. The Socialist revolution is the mechanism of this process.
Can you explain the Engels quote?
Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke?
No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
I don't really care about the Engels quote. I want to know exactly how long you expect this to take. Because Earth isn't getting any cooler, so if this takes any more than 4 or 5 years, it isn't going to matter.
Faster if you help!
That's not an answer. Will it take more than 5 years to end the use of fossil fuels through this revolution?
I can't see it happening under Capitalism, that's for sure!
Still not an answer.
I really don't see what your point is with this, first you claimed Socialist states aren't Socialist because they are Marxist, but that you don't care about Marxism, and now you're asking for a guarantee of climate action within 5 years. You're all over the place. What's your goal?
This began with me asking you when and where the revolution would take place. You couldn't tell me. I explained to you that if it doesn't happen within the next five years, it won't matter and asked you if it will. You won't tell me.
You have given me zero good reasons to join these revolutionary groups that you have named to join, which have not achieved anything and apparently have no actual plans to stage a revolution.
The revolution had better both happen within the next five years and end our dependence on fossil fuels or it won't make a difference.
You don't seem to get that. You seem to think there's some sort of long-term future where capitalism slowly disappears and thus we slowly stop burning oil. That's not how civilization is going to go. It will collapse long, long before that.
Are you a nihilist? I can't make a guarantee that we can establish Socialism and get rid of fossil fuels within 5 years. I can say that AES countries have been far better than average on meeting climate goals.
What exactly was the point of you claiming AES states aren't Socialist? Are you just looking to argue?