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The Democrats, in the eyes of liberals, can only be failed, they cannot fail of their own accord. Now, more than ever, is a good time to start reading theory, as many liberals are disaffected by the US election. I wrote an introductory reading list for Marxism in case anyone wants one.
This wasn't the Democrats being failed, it was the whole country being failed. It wasn't about voting for the Democrats, it was about voting against Donald Trump, and there was only one way to effectively do that. Everyone who refused to do that got exactly what they voted for with Trump, whatever ends up happening, but rather than accepting that maybe this was the worst option, they're just posting memes about how everyone didn't push back against the democrats hard enough, so I doubt it'll sink in.
Do you think continuing the slide into fascism as Capitalism continues to decay is a good thing? If not, how do you plan on stopping it?
The fact of the matter is that the Democrats ran to the right of Biden in 2020 and committed fully to genocide. They lost the support they had, and they lost enough to lose the popular vote as well as electoral college. This was a massive failure, and if your plan was simply to vote Dem and hope for the best, then it's clear that your plan A failed. What's your plan B?
Plan B has a stink on it. We are calling it Plan D now.
Fair enough. What's Plan D?
Plan A, basically, without the stink.
Organize, prepare for direct actions, build solidarity.
Everyone always talks like defeating Trump in the election is the end-all be-all of the disussion. Voting Democrat and preventing Trump from taking the white house should have been an obvious step. It is not the best outcome for the election, nor is it the end of the approaching decay of late-stage capitalism into wealth-based fascism, but all this whataboutism and strawmanning Democrat voters as believing Kamala was going to single-handedly save democracy is disingenous. It was never "Plan A". It was one minor, marginally better compromise in the collective of shit we should be doing.
Voting Kamala failed. The Democrats failed to run a campaign that won. That is in the past. What I am saying is that voting Democrat did not work, so I am asking what their plan actually is, if voting Dem wasn't plan A then what is?
Leftists already have a plan that isn't contingent on winning a presidential election. Do liberals?
No, they don’t. Liberals believe that voting democrat every four years and arguing with leftists on the internet is activism.
The Brunch Brigade, I call them.
That fits nicely because it's always people who have and will continue to have enough food in their belly that they can indulge in an extra meal while indulging in fantasies like 'one more election cycle, pleeeease, I trust them to stop murdering millions of innocent people, just one more election cycle and then they'll fix everything, pleeease'.
Just one more dem, one more election, one more liberal...
I wouldn't know. I'm not an American, and not a card-carrying liberal voter on my country.
What I do know is that this constant othering is how these problems were created in the first place. Spending time and energy building straw men on the Internet is creating enemies, not allies. If you are genuinely dedicated to spreading information and awareness, as your earlier post suggests, making assumptions and jumping down people's throats is hurting your cause, not helping it.
We are currently in the process of creating a larger divide in left-minded individuals, and I am unbelievably sick of it. As the right rapidly unifys, we seem to be learning nothing.
"Othering" is not the cause of problems of polarization, but sharpening of contradictions in decaying Capitalism. Wealth disparity is sky-high and only rapidly climbing. I don't see how I am "jumping down people's throats," I am very clearly saying that since voting Harris didn't work, there must be another plan, and I'm asking what that plan is.
What's non-wealth-based fascism?
What’s your plan B?
What's yours? Since letting Trump get elected was apparently Step 1, what's Step 2? Where are we going now? Come on, fill us in.
Or, alternately, stop putting words in other peoples' mouths and consider that what we have now is worse for everyone than the alternative would have been.
I didn't get Trump elected, lol. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't. The election isn't a part of any Leftist's plans.
The answer is revolution, as it always has been, and that starts with organizing. I've even made an introductory Marxist reading list that has gotten several people to read theory, and hopefully join Leftists in organizing. Yes, I did link it at the beginning of this convo, and no, you didn't click it, otherwise you'd know what my plan is because I spell it out.
What's your plan? Endlessly critique on Lemmy and blame voters for the failures of the DNC?
I didn’t get Trump elected, lol.
And this right here is our unresolvable ideological difference. You refuse to consider that by not voting for the better option, you're partially responsible for what we have now. Good luck with your revolution, I guess. We have nothing else to discuss.
You seem to be assuming that they didn't vote for no apparent reason.
I don't care if they did or didn't; I find them to be completely insufferable and have no desire to engage with them further.
Why? Because you made up a bunch of shit about them and then got mad about it?
The app I was using was making it look like everything I was replying to was from the same poster, when in fact it was not. I've already apologized for that error.
What, exactly, is insufferable about me asking you what your plan is when you come attacking me of your own volition? It wasn't like I reached out to you, you whined and left when you couldn't articulate a point.
Your 'plan' is not a plan so much as a general set of vague guidelines. My 'plan', with the same degree of validity, is to (continue to) support my local community, work towards conversions to better voting systems, and try to weather the next four years while continuing to take a pragmatist's stance on political candidates.
What I find insufferable about you and the majority of the vocal folk who share your views are that you don't seem interested in actually having a conversation about your views. You're all quite ready to put words in other peoples' mouths and adopt a holier-than-thou attitude towards everyone, while not considering that many of us might share a lot of your views if you weren't so damn militant about everything. We probably have quite a lot in common, but painting everyone who isn't a marxist as a capitalist / fascist isn't helping your cause, not in the slightest.
This will be the last thing I say here, so feel free to get your last word in.
My plan is a plan, revolution has clear requirements and work do be done, organizations to be built and class awareness to be raised. I don't know what you mean by that as "guidelines."
Secondly, "supporting your community," while noble, is vague and shapeless. What does that look like? How do you work towards better voting systems, and how do you know they are sufficient to bring about change? Is this a situation where you just think really hard about something and hope it magically manifests, or is this a real, practical plan? These questions should all be able to be answered by you in a heartbeat, and if not, your plan does not have the same degree of validity. I encourage you to poke and prod at what I espouse. I also take what I believe to be a pragmatist's approach - after all, I believe what you advocate thus far is far too difficult to accomplish and far too little to accomplish much even if it did come to pass.
Thirdly, you claim I am not willing to have a conversation about my views. Since when? You can check my comment history, it is filled with meaningful conversation regarding the myriad nuances, complexities, difficulties, and strengths of Marxism. When were you willing to have a discussion? You opened a conversation where I said the Democrats failed to garner support with condemnation of my personal character, and refused to acknowledge my points on the necessity of working towards a practical solution rather than hoping the Democrats can win. Evidently, that still remains your tactic, because you only said "voting reform" is necessary.
I never once painted you as a Capitalist, you're likely a proletarian like most of us. I never once called you a fascist, either.
I do believe that if you took the advice I gave in the beginning, you'd likely agree with my reading list, and even become a Communist by the end of it. What I don't believe is that you're in a mindset to take that advice, nor do I believe you ever have been in this conversation. You opened it with personal attacks when I tried to direct the conversation towards practical actions, and I think that's because taking action scares you.
I hope you'll read theory, I do think you'd agree with it if you would be willing to do so, but I don't think you are, yet. If, on the off-chance you do decide, I'm open to answer any questions you might have. I don't know everything about Marxism, not by a long-shot, but I'm very confident in what I do talk about because I refrain from talking about what I don't know.
You don't know who I voted for, and it doesn't matter. I could have voted De La Crúz, Stein, Oliver, Harris, Trump, any of them, and it would not have made a shred of difference, and unlike you, I have planned for that already. You still haven't told me your plan, so I guess I was right, it really is just to whine on Lemmy and blame voters for the tremendous and historic failure of the Democratic Party to connect even somewhat to the working masses and thus garner support.
In the future, when Capitalism has decayed further, you'll likely become radicalized and seek to understand this process, and I'll be right here.
Not letting Democrats run a Nazi candidate was step 1. Liberals failed that.
Should have pushed back like I did so Genocrats would have changed course before it was too late. Instead Blue MAGA condoned it all and silenced dissent.
This is the result of capitulating every demand because "But Trump".
Ironically "But Trump" is what got you Trump.
Ironically “But Trump” is what got you Trump.
iI's actually got us Trump twice now.
This type of rhetoric is why I and many others just cannot take you folks or your views seriously.
being taken seriously is like the last thing I want. The FBI agent assigned to me might have to actually do something.
Fr when I'm filling in my spreadsheet for the people I have to watch, it's a lot easier if everyone goes in column A or column B.
Column A is titled 'Radical speech but thinks that voting will change anything – no action required'.
Column B is 'Radical shitposter – maintain eyes, no immediate action required'.
The other columns, though – damn it's a lot of paperwork.
Column O, 'Organising their community, feeding people, and providing healthcare' is the worst. Luckily for me, the agency's action means they don't stay on the list for long so the paperwork is finite. I probably shouldn't be saying all this as it's top secret. But we do know what's up in our department.
This wasn't the Democrats being failed
Correct.
it was the whole country being failed
Exactly, by the Democrats.
It wasn't about voting for the Democrats
Hence why people didn't vote for Democrats. They had no reason.
and there was only one way to effectively do that.
Do you think it was about voting democrats. You just think they should be able to do literally whatever they want, including genocide.
they're just posting memes about how everyone didn't push back against the democrats hard enough
More like they're posting about how the Democrats should have listened when we were posting the same things before ethe election, but you not only willfully ignored us, you distanced yourself. Now that it over and we were right, you're mad at the messenger.
