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Centralization: Marx advocated for centralization to empower workers, not to create a bureaucratic elite. The issue isn’t centralization itself but the exclusion of workers from meaningful control in AES states.
Worker Suppression: While AES states achieved significant social gains, suppression refers to limiting worker autonomy, like crushing independent unions or dissent. Material gains don’t erase these contradictions.
Worker Control and Class Abolition: AES moved toward collective ownership but retained a strong ruling elite, deviating from Marx’s vision of worker-led production and the state’s gradual dissolution.
Purges and Cultural Revolution: These events suppressed debate and autonomy, both vital for Marxist progress. Proletarian agency is more than material gains, are the workers actively shaping society?
The accusative tone is unnecessary. Assuming someone isn’t "actually a Marxist" or demanding reading lists shuts down discussion. Are we here to discuss and comment or just to pass judgment?
- How are workers "excluded from meaningful control?" Again, you don't say anything about how or why.
  I need to see some examples of "crushing independent unions and dissent." What unions, and what dissent?
  What is an "elite?" What does worker ownership look like in your eyes that differs from the democratic structures in AES? Further, the real material gains for the Working Class is a signifier of the Socialist model, AES worked for the Proletariat above all else.
  What debate and autonomy was suppressed? What are you saying should have been allowed?
  As for why I am asking if you're a Marxist and what you've read, it's so I can fill in the blanks you are leaving. There's no discussion being had here, every time I ask for clarification you get more and more vague. If you explained that you're an Orthodox Marxist, as an example, I know where you're coming from and can fill in the gaps. If you say you're a Trot, I can also understand where you're working from. This isn't about power-level scaling with reading lists, I want to know where you're drawing your conclusions from, because your analysis contradicts the overwhelming majority of Marxists worldwide.
  
  In AES states, decision-making was often centralized in the hands of party officials or bureaucrats, not the workers themselves. Marx wanted workers to manage their workplaces directly.
  Independent unions and dissenting voices were suppressed. Examples include the USSR controlling unions and the repression of Solidarity in Poland.
  An elite is a small group in power, often controlling the state and economy. Worker ownership means workers democratically managing their workplaces without a ruling class.
  The state suppressed critical debate, as seen in Stalin’s purges and China’s Cultural Revolution, stifling workers' ability to shape society.
  I don't have a need to fall under any labels. I agree on the lack of discussion and sense there's a need to be judged for some invisible requirements which seem more vague than what I comment.
  
  You're drawing a line between workers and party members without backing that in class analysis. The Party is made up of workers, the most politically advanced among them. Marx did not advocate for direct democracy at every level, the form of Democracy in AES is Proletarian Democracy.
  What do you mean by "independent unions" being suppressed? Solidarity with what in Poland was suppressed? What is the real force being suppressed here, and is it in the interests of the working class or against it?
  Back to the "Elite" argument. What do you believe the "Administration of Things" looks like? Planners and government offiicals are not distinct classes, just like in a business the middle managers are not a class distinct from the Workers. Classes are based on ownership and power, by all historical analysis the Class in power in AES is the Proletariat.
  Again, you repeat yourself with respect to the purges and cultural revolution. How did they stifle worker ability to shape society? You aren't doing analysis here, just repeating a thesis you still need to prove.
  The reason you should fall under some degree of label is because Marxists believe theory must be tested by practice. Those who don't belong to an org and don't adopt a label that can at least mostly be applied to themselves serve as extremely out of touch with the rest of Marxists, who daily discuss and work to come to a better understanding of theory and practice.
  I'm a Marxist-Leninist, for example, and think your outright rejection of Lenin to be a dogmatic error. Is there a label you mostly fit under?
  
  Marx did emphasize proletarian democracy over direct democracy at every level, his focus was on workers managing their own workplaces. On the other hand, concentration of power within the Party often limits workers’ direct involvement in decision-making. This centralization undermines the idea of workers having control over the means of production.
  Independent unions refer to organizations that challenge the state's control, aiming to protect workers' interests outside the state apparatus. The suppression of Solidarity in Poland, a movement advocating for worker rights, was more about maintaining state control than about the interests of the working class. The state’s actions against Solidarity were a way to suppress independent worker power, not a defense of worker interests.
  Planners and officials may come from the working class, but they hold authority over economic decisions, separating them from ordinary workers. This division has an issue where control over resources and decision-making creates a power dynamic. The problem is not with the workers themselves but with the system that centralizes control rather than allowing workers direct control over their labor.
  The purges and Cultural Revolution were significant in stifling workers' ability to shape society, as they involved the suppression of dissent and independent thought. These events were not just about removing political enemies, but about curbing the voices of those advocating for a more democratic and worker-controlled system. Marx envisioned socialism as a society in which workers could actively shape their own futures, not one dominated by a centralized authority.
  Labels like Marxist-Leninist help unify political efforts, but they should not limit critical thinking or prevent independent analysis. To some labels provide clarity and structure, and there are also we adapting to changing conditions avoiding rigid dogmatism.
  
  No, Marx did not focus on workers managing their own workplaces. This stands in stark contrast with Marx's conception of the whole of society owning and planning production collectively. You are describing a more Anarchist configuration of society than Marxist. Workers having control of the Means of Production was never meant to be focused on local levels, but broad, societal scales, and while democratic input is necessary, moving beyond the anarchy of production was a requirement.
  Solidarity was a US-backed anti-Socialist movement. It worked against the working class and for the petite bourgeoisie.
  Planners are not a separate class. Class is not based on hierarchy, but ownership. You are speaking as an Anarchist, not a Marxist. The Marxian basis of class analysis is based on ownership, not simple "power," otherwise managers would be a separate class. Read Critique of the Gotha Programme and Socialism: Utopian and Scientific if you want to learn more about how Marx and Engels envisioned Socialism and Communism as economically planned.
  As for purges and the cultural revolution, liberalism and fascism were oppressed, as well as those seeking to move from a Socialist system collectively owned and planned to a more petite bourgeois mode of production based on councils. Anti-Dühring shows Engels going against such a systen, as it isn't really based on Marxist class analysis. This isn't giving workers more control, it's removing the ability of workers to have an input on the broader economy in favor of increasing local input, which goes against Communism as collective and equal ownership over all of production.
  The problems thus far are fairly apparent, you appear to be ascribing anarchist principles to Marx and as such see actually existing Marxist ideas as "betrayals" of such an anarchist ideal.
  
  Marx’s vision focused on collective ownership and planning by society as a whole, not local control by individual workplaces. Workers should manage production collectively, as a class, not in isolated units, which is more in line with anarchism.
  Solidarity was a workers' movement, and its contradictions and external influences didn’t change its core goal of improving worker conditions.
  Planners don't create a new class as long as they serve collective ownership. Marx’s focus was on ensuring collective control, not creating a separate managerial class.
  The purges and Cultural Revolution on paper aimed at suppressing reactionary forces, but sometimes limited workers’ ability to influence the economy. Protecting socialism doesn't come at the expense of worker participation.
  Marxism supports centralized planning by the working class, while anarchism favors local autonomy. Marx's approach is about centralizing control for equality, not decentralizing into smaller units.
  
  Cool, so now your stance is largely flip-flopping and AES is Socialist, glad we are in agreement finally.
  
  There is no flip-flopping. AES does not align with the Marxist principles.
  
  Solidarity was a Capitalist-backed anti-Socialist movement, just because workers participated didn't make it in the interests of the workers.
  Planners in AES serve collective ownership, I already gave you a couple books to read on to show this is the case. You can continue to assert the opposite, and you'll continue to be wrong.
  More than anything, your definition of Socialism appears to be "executes Marxist principles perfectly and without flaw," which is dogmatism and anti-Materialist. This is the biggest error, and why in your eyes Socialism will likely never exist. The thing is, Marx himself would laugh at that notion.
  
  My comments consistently reject perfectionism and dogmatism, focusing instead on grounding socialism in Marxist principles. Claiming that recognizing AES’s contradictions means believing socialism can’t exist is simply false. Whether someone agrees or not is irrelevant. This is commentary, not an effort to convert anyone.

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