1mo ago

Badminton

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No? They can play with the boys. Changing rooms can be arranged. Why is it important for a trans-girl who went through male puberty to play with girls that are smaller and physically weaker?
I should probably clarify that i mean compete in competitions, dont care in the slightest who or how they want to practice. That's just fair.
- I see, so it's an information problem.
  Trans girls are not stronger than other girls. Any increased muscle mass vanishes with hormone therapy as the testosterone supporting it goes away. Likewise the body remodels stuff like cartilages as all of this is influenced by hormones. That's why Olympia goes so overboard with hormone tests, even forcing cis-women to do invasive measures to reduce their natural testosterone levels.
  The only difference caused by puberty that are irreversible are:
  How thick bones are & how they formed
  How you sound
  Where you grow how much hair
  And of those three ONLY the first can be of any value in any argument. And definitely not for badminton. Uninformed bullshit arguments cause WAY more problems for cis-women in sports than they could ever solve. There's nothing fair about that way of arguing.
  
  Trans girls are not stronger than other girls. Any increased muscle mass vanishes with hormone therapy as the testosterone supporting it goes away.
  Yeah, but then you'd need rules for checking that too.
  And of those three ONLY the first can be of any value
  Yes, and one is enough for making competitions unfair.
  
  Those rules are already in place, professional sports require trans athletes to receive treatment in a controlled environment to make sure it's all fair. Hell, they check literally every athlete for Olympia or other big tournaments. And if you can prove that thicker bones than average give you an unfair advantage in some way go ahead and tell the professionals who literally look into this very topic the whole fucking time. In Badminton thicker bones are even worse because they potentially slow you down a tiny bit. And advantages due to size are a normal problem to deal with in sports and no trans-specific issue, just look at Basketball. Until there are proper arguments this whole discussion is just evidence for either transphobia or lack of knowledge, nothing more.
  
  Thanks for bringing up the bone point. Something noone seems to acknowledge in this argument is that anything that couldnt be changed would come with just as many disadvantages as advantages. Even then, you can make things fair without outright bans. Discuss is co ed but womens are half the weight, an argument they themselves used
  
  Those rules are already in place, professional sports require trans athletes to receive treatment in a controlled environment to make sure it's all fair.
  Wrong, most sports don't. Most countries don't. Most countries doesn't acknowledge that being trans is even a real condition.
  I saw a documentary of the olympic "spot checks" for potential men competing with women. It's a shit show. They knocked on the doors at the hotels and asked them to show what's between their legs. I guess it's something, but kind of "ad hoc" and likely more undignified than it needs to be.
  
  Wrong, most sports don’t. Most countries don’t. Most countries doesn’t acknowledge that being trans is even a real condition.
  You literally invalidate your own argument instantly. Countries that do not acknowledge trans people exist obviously do also not allow them to sports, therefore not doing anything that would even remotely resemble an attempt at fair treatment.
  And yes, the current "tests" are more often than not a shitshow. That's literally what I pointed out before, cis-women also suffer from this nonsense. However international tournament still do them in one way or another in a really bad attempt at doing something.
  I've got enough of this bullshit. If you keep being a transphobic prick ("men competing with women") that prefers the "if in doubt, throw them out" method then we've nothing to say to each other. You evidently preferred to show everyone you're a real dick.
  
  Wrong again. They would be allowed to compete with men. As that is the open class.
- How would you propose women prove they are not trans and can thus play on the women's team?
  
  I'm not qualified to answer that. I assume a doctor might be able to answer.
  But not having a dick is a start.
  
  And how would you like these women to prove they don't have a dick?
  
  Don't you think they know if they do or don't?
  
  So this is just a "circle one: do you have a penis Y/N" thing on a form and as long as they choose N, they can be on the women's team?
  
  Wouldn't really prove anything, but if they lied there would be evidence? Are you stupid?
  
  I'm going to ignore the insult and ask you what evidence there would be.
  
  In your example, there would be evidence that they lied on a form. Obviously anyone can put whatever they want on a form.
  
  Again, what would that evidence be? What sort of evidence?
  
  I think you're trying to lead into some existential "what even is gendered sex" like its not obvious.
  If you're born with women parts you can be om womens team, or mens team for all i care.
  If you're born with mens parts, you may not compete against those that were born with womens parts.
  Anything beyond that would need a doctors expertise.
  
  The issue isnt how to figure out. The issue is you're suggesting checking people's bits, which is patently invasive. Also, most leagues that are inclusive have a surgery requirement. The Olympics for example require you be post op for at least two years, and have hormone levels at a cis womans average. Not one trans woman has even podiumed because were less than a percent of the population, and become the subject of a news frenzy if we try
- Its important for the same reason gays and leabians want proper marriages and not just civil unions. There is social legitamacy that comes from inclusion. I have also never seen a single study actually backing up this unfair advantage narrative.
  Meanwhile, the WNBA has an average player height of 6'1" against the average womans height of 5'4". But noone complains about a cis woman whos 6 foot having an unfair advantage. Meanwhile even cis women get caught in the crossfire, see Imane Khalif who could be executed in her home country for being trans. She's not, but one salty boxer and a fraudulent Russian report gave her all sorts of shit and put her life in danger.

134 comments