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So I felt like I had helped pushing debt relief forward in the US, hope that is okay with you folks here.
And I would agree with the image. But can I be risky and question some things? I can delete my post if people don't like it.
But, Ok regarding tax increases on wealthy and corporations: won't they just find loopholes? Heck wasn't the tax rate raised to like 80% for the wealthy as one point in the US?
I would prefer if culture steps away from tax the rich to either simplify tax rules or remove loopholes, which I would think both sides of voters in the US would be happy for? (Assuming both sides hate the current tax system)
Or assuming politicians are in in the loopholes too, making the tax easier or the loopholes more complicated that labor wise it would be better to just pay taxes?
Sorry... why do you think people on the left wouldn't be in favor of removing tax loopholes for rich people?
Sorry I didn't intend to bring sides into this, I am referring to the super rich and poor. Not left or right. Is that okay?
I think both voters on both sides would be in favor of removing tax loopholes. But I imagine the wealthy on both sides would be hesitant?
Assuming if you are super rich that takes priority over political parties. Would the Military Industrial Complex be a similar example?
The wealthy are only on one side- their own. The aren't left or right, they're just greedy hoarders. Their ideology goes as far as their wallet. They give to politics to get their way and they give to charities to get tax write-offs.
I think he problem is that the wealthy are lobbying for laws to keep their loopholes or make new ones. Unless we can find a way to keep lawmakers from accepting bribes, the lower class will always be at a disadvantage even if we do vote for better taxing of the rich.
This goes along with some of the scholarship that talks about class morality. The moral calculus of one social class is essentially alien to other social classes. The upper class sees morality as a tool of controlling the masses and of limited personal utility, but middle class and working class have different concepts of morality as well (e.g., perceptions of theft vary dramtically, if I recall correctly). This is a concept I encountered ages ago in an anthropology course, but I can't for the life of me give you a citation.
Okay good I felt like I was alone in that respect. Sometimes I feel like causing two partiess to fight is what the richest want so they can get away with anything sometimes lol.
But I'm sure that's not true, and if it is I would be sad people have been tricked into choosing sides and being brainwashed to hate for the gain of others who couldn't care.
It's unfortunate that our entire culture has been boiled down to a few wedge issues by people with no interest in bettering the common persons life. Your stance on Gods/Guns/Gays pretty much determines how you'll vote at this point.
Oh another Q I had was the student debt relief.
Isn't student debt relief just a short term fix? Yes debt relief is something I would vote for, but Like that money has to go somewhere right? Wouldn't it be better to lower the cost of the out of control education or health care first to make it easier to provide more affordable universal care in the future?
Unless other country with universal care charge $20 for a cough drop at the distributor level for hospitals, then disregard my statement 😄
Why not give people student debt relief and make college free and have universal healthcare? It's not like you have to pick one.
How much are you willing to give up of your own pay cheque to fund that?
I'm more than willing to pay more in taxes as it will be offset by not paying my expensive monthly health insurance premium. Even bureaucrats would be better than insurance "for profit" flunkies in deciding what health decisions I'm allowed to make.
I am just going to guess no one will make that happen for another 150 years, but it's a nice dream isn't it.
But my rationality is if you start with a long term plan for universal health and education, debt relief would follow suit.
I am just confused why debt relief is headlined and no long term solutions, as if the culture wants to hide long term solutions.
The culture doesn't want to hide from it, politicians do.
Neat. Thanks! I wonder what it would take to get constituents to pester politicians more about this. Anything I can do to help would be neat!
Debt relief can literally change lives right now. Long term changes are important, but the positive impact on actual current living situations is huge.
Yes, forgiving student loans can realistically only be a one time fix, but:
— most of these are for a previously existing forgiveness program that was managed so poorly no one could qualify
— halting payments as part of COViD relief while continuing to accrue interest means that some people are getting hit with ballooning payments after year of none
But of course the real problem is how to get college education costs back under control. They have been going up much faster than inflation for decades, making a good education much harder to afford than for the rich devious generation
— a big part of this is reduced state spending on education, so public school costs go up as fast as private. States need to start investing more in public universities again. Top tier private schools will always command any price but most private schools would need to compete if public universities were affordable
— some states are starting to offer some amount of college free
Because current measures only make rich people flee elsewhere, which moves the tax burden to the middle class, which becomes poorer due to this and other factors, and then we have a few rich guys living elsewhere and a poor mass
Flee where exactly? If this were national, they'd have to flee the country. And good riddance to them and their hoarding. They improve nothing.
If all the leeches on society fled we'd be much better off. Let them leave. They don't pay their fair share anyways, and their neoliberal lobbying has destroyed this country.
Exactly.
Tax havens. Ever heard of the Caymans, the Bahamas and so on?
You mean the things they already use and wouldn't be able to if they lived in the U.S. and the loopholes were closed? What about them?
So you want to suppress freedom of movement?
What? No, I want people to pay taxes in the country they live in. What on Earth are you talking about?
So you want to close the borders and not allow someone to migrate? Like, you move to another country but you still have to pay taxes to your native country + your new one?
Again, no. I want people who live in the U.S. to pay taxes. I don't know how I can be more clear on this. If billionaires don't want to pay taxes in the U.S., they don't have to live in the U.S.
Let them go. They provide no value. They're hoarders, not job creators.
Give it a rest.
You already have to do this in the US. The first $120,000 of income is exempt from federal taxes when you live abroad, but everything above that is subject to US federal income tax.
And you don't have to MOVE there to shelter tax. You just create a shell corporation that is housed there virtually that owns your yacht, your third house, your businesses. That's why there are 800,000 corporations with an address in the British Virgin Islands even though the main island is only 22km long and the entire country only has around 30,000 people in it.
You clearly have no idea how any of this really works and you're just parroting things you heard or read somewhere. Let me suggest you stop talking and try to learn something here instead.
Rich people are not going to flee the United States because of taxes for two reasons: We have good infrastructure (relatively speaking anyway) and we have a reliable, predictable business court system.
Do you know why Cayman, Bahamas, and British Virgin Islands are actually preferred for creation of shell corporations? Because their court systems appeal all the way to the United Kingdom supreme court. Stable business court system is the reason those countries were able to take advantage of loopholes in our tax code.
That's exactly how it works. You want to retain your US citizenship while living abroad, you pay US taxes. Ask anyone. This is common knowledge. The only way out of it is to renounce US citizenship and it turns out that very few rich people actually want to do that because it has giant ripple effects on everything they own and often their extended family and how they can manage their wealth and even where they can give money to support causes they believe in.
The only way around this is through off-shore tax havens that can be taken advantage of through loopholes in the tax code which in turn are exactly what people are talking about addressing here.
Sorry you didn't get the memo.
Wait Americans ever leave their country?
Have you ever LIVED in one of those tax havens? Because I have, and trust me, rich folks ain't up and moving to a tiny wild west country controlled by black people anytime soon. Especially when they can get the exact same tax havens benefits in Delaware, Wyoming, Nevada....
Stop falling for the propaganda that the Caribbean is causing problems for us. They're not. Our tax code created the incentives. We're the problem.
Ireland maybe?
You're wrong. Accept it. The idea that the rich will flee if we tax them is propaganda perpetuated by the rich to keep us from trying.
You think it's propaganda, I know it has already happened several times, just not in the US because they're in charge of it
Oh you know, do you? Do share please.
It hasn't happened in the US and it isn't going to happen in the US because above all else, rich people favor the quality of life they're able to achieve in rich countries. Where are they gonna flee, the EU? Where taxes are already higher? Ireland you said? A tiny country with little in the way of American-style luxury amenities that has zero interest in allowing them to immigrate there?
The rich will stay just like they did back in the 50s when the highest marginal tax rate was 90%. It's time to make them pay their share for the benefits they gain from this country.
There's actually proof that the rich won't flee at all. This is a myth.
Yes, they as people don't move elsewhere, but their companies sure do, and that affects tax collection
How do you think loopholes creep into the tax laws? It’s done by politicians who accept bribes from lobbyists who work for the mega corporations and the ultra wealthy. Yes those kind of politicians are in both camps. But one side is full of them and the other is slightly less full of them. Vote for better politicians and show up to every election even the local ones. That’s how you can put a “radical” into power who might want to do something about the current system. And those “radicals” aren’t a member of the Republican Party.
✊agreed
There are no loopholes. That’s something they want you to believe.
The tax code is written in a specific way and that’s not a loophole.
Mistakes happen but most of the “loopholes” are there by design.
So the next question is what can be done, like today, where can I go who should should I contact other than my usual reps?
Contact any rep who will listen but that number is about zero.
That’s the issue with two party system.
Our tax system is overly complex. They should just send you a bill or credit like most European systems.
I like to think my support in third parties on the rise in 200 years has helped then 😄
Yeah I’d line to see six or more parties. The problem two is they just claim to be against the other.
I’m a republican but their current policies are just being against the democrats.
You need counter forces to get things done. We’ve been in a stalemate for a long time now with each side blaming the other.
Democrats have a majority and you don’t see all the grand things they’ve been promising because they are full of crap.
Same for the republicans.
If we had six parties. They’d really get judged on what they accomplish.
The party I am registered as primarily focuses on spreading word on Ranked Choice, only because there's no other way to compete.
I’ll admit I’ve always rejected the idea but I think I’m rejecting it because I don’t understand it. I think I need to read more about it and maybe support it.
I think it may be our best solution since we are stuck in two party limbo.
Yes we do have other parties on occasion but not enough to stir the pot.
I’m an old school republican and the new party just blows. If we have enough mix of parties, I’d with to the one that aligns better with my values.
Edit to tldr: one of the richest men in the world “ paid a total tax rate of 17.7%, the average tax rate for people in his office was 32.9%.”
— No one is advocating for the old days with 90% tax on the wealthy. We all know that won’t work
— we have a progressive tax, meaning wealthier pay a higher rate, which is good. However many “tweaks” have eroded that so it’s no longer as true. Most people just want to undo those tweaks
— There are multiple tax brackets so you pay a higher percentage as you earn more. I do earn more than average so I pay more, fair. But I’m far from wealthy, so why am I in the highest tax bracket? Why do the Elon Musks of the world pay the same rate on income as my upper middle income?
— our income taxes are more complex than people realize, but many tax cuts of the last few Republican administrations have been for sources of income that mostly benefit the wealthy. Why is my salary income taxed at such a high rate compared to Elon Musk’s capital gains income?
— why do I pay taxes on all my income while a well known real estate grifter can incorporate hundreds of times and play shell games with his money, and claim to be both a billionaire with huge income AND writing off all that income as a business loss to avoid taxed
— but this fiasco really tells the story. How is it that when even one of the wealthiest thinks it’s unfair, we keep doing it? https://www.fool.com/taxes/2020/09/25/why-does-billionaire-warren-buffett-pay-a-lower-ta/
Interesting stuff to look into, thanks!