2年前

This is how you negotiate.

106 评论

Is it? The Big 3 have made significant concessions at this point. There Is a certain level where a plant like that could move to Mexico. Dodge Ram has about half of its production in Mexico and their sales volume has not been impacted.
Just to keep the record straight, they are currently offering elimination of tiers, 3 years to the max wage level, 23% pay increase, COLA reinstatement. This puts their workers in a place to make $100k per year with no education at all after 3 years of work. Where else is that possible?
- Those concessions don't apply to their EV factories, both existing and new, meaning they are worthless in 5-10 years when they phase ICE out. They want, and frankly deserve, long term guarantees.
  
  "The company said it had offered pay increases of more than 20% to permanent workers, raises of 26% for temporary workers, the return of cost-of-living adjustments, a ratification bonus, increased 401(k) contributions, additional paid time off and "no job loss due to EV battery plants," among other things" https://www.axios.com/2023/10/12/uaw-strike-update-ford-shawn-fain
  Incorrect. And you're dreaming if you think commercial trucks in particular (F-series and SuperDuty) move to all electric in the next 5-10 years
  
  As of 10/4:
  Ford has not agreed to restore defined-benefit pensions and company-financed health care in retirement for all workers. Ford says it is also opposed to a UAW demand to guarantee that future battery factories will offer the same pay and benefits as existing factories.
  The UAW says that GM still isn’t meeting the union’s demands on cost-of-living adjustment to wages. And GM hasn’t agreed to allow workers to strike over plant closures.
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/10/04/uaw-strike-automaker-offers/
  
  My article is from the 12th. Crazy thing about negotiations, your article from 10/4 is wrong. The date matters and you are providing outdated information.
  
  The article you linked doesn't contradict, or even mention, the UAW demands and concerns I quoted from my article dated 10/4. Can you please provide an article stating that between the 4th and the time of your original comment, either of the specific concerns were addressed with concessions from Ford & GM? The meme is literally referencing the company's failure to update their offer since the last negotiation meeting.
  Otherwise, I have to make the usual assumption of troll or disingenuous interlocutor.
  Edit: Yup, UAW states quite clearly that the offer hadn't changed from two weeks ago. Please stop arguing in bad faith.
  
  And you're dreaming if you think commercial trucks in particular (F-series and SuperDuty) move to all electric in the next 5-10 years
  Check out the title of this article. GM is aiming to phase out ICE in 12 years. No it's not Ford, and goals aren't always met but the transition is happening sooner or later.
- I don't understand this mindset.
  "The workers should be lucky they aren't getting fair compensation because they are uneducated half wits." "who cares that they have up more than what they are currently asking back in 2008?" "I mean their labor created record profits for the companies, and what they are asking for isn't even 10% of those profits, but the shareholders and executives deserve that 10% more!"
  Ya no. It's about them getting a slice of the profits. Acting as workers are not deserving of greater amounts due to their labor is a joke. The 40% increase is low considering they generated $32 billion last year. They could demand immediate pay increases of $80k but are asking for $32k over the life of the contract.
  
  Just because they work on assembly lines doesn’t make them “uneducated half wits” either. They are still jobs that require a level of skill to perform well. I’d like to see any “C” level Ford executive perform similar tasks for hours a day with the same levels of quality and skill.
  
  I know. OP and people like him think that. But it doesn't matter! The number one benefactor in a companies success should always be the worker not some CEO or hedge fund manger.
- Dodge Ram has about half of its production in Mexico and their sales volume has not been impacted.
  To a certain degree. But I just want to give you a size of scope and realize it isn't just labor that effects where a company is located, but also the tax rate, the ability to get resources in and out, also the cost of extracting materials and having them shipped, and cooperation with local government(s).
  But biggest problem a CEO has to face when moving to a new country is how the hell all that equipment gets there. You aren't talking about moving computer equipment, you are talking about hundreds of Press Wielding machines that are measured in tons and acres.
  What you are talking about, moving hundreds of miles of electrical wiring, hundreds of tons of pinpoint accurate equipment, thousands of computer networking systems with their own unique operating system, and we haven't even gotten to power regulations, and labor yet.
  TL:DR
  If these companies could save money by moving to Mexico, they would have already tried.
  
  Agreed that it would be gone if it was feasible. I worked for a small manufacturer and helped with quoting. It was three times less for us to send a product to Mexico for production.
  Where the US is better is automation and complexity. In Mexico or was difficult to find the technical resources able to handle automated and complex projects. Mexico was better for any manually/ sinple assembly job, as they could just throw more people at it to ramp up production. Note that these are generalities that my specific team used.
  
  You know Ford already has factory operations in Mexico, right?
  
  They have two actually,
  Mexico: Mermosillo Stamping and Assembly Plant
  Mexico: Cauatitlan Stamping and Assembly Plant
  Keep in mind, that the combined total employees at these facilities is about 3000 employees, vs. the 10,000 employee plant in Kentucky.
  So if we are talking about scale, I do not think it is fair comparison to say that a 6% of Ford's operations in Mexico is worth 16% of it's production in one factory.
  Nor is it fair to assume that someone is going to snap their fingers and suddenly a new factory that can equal the production of the US is going to appear in Mexico. Or that Ford is just going to abandon a literal car factory just because labor in Mexico is cheaper.
  
  I believe both of those plants are unionized as well, so Ford may not like what will happen if they decide to strike in solidarity with American workers.
- Meanwhile the CxO ranks got 40% raises years ago.
  
  And the workers took pay cuts earlier. A 40% increase is less impressive when you take a 15% cut first. (That's a 19% net increase, but this isn't based on actual numbers.)
  
  Who gives a shit? Their comp has little to do with the rank and file. They are entirely unrelated. Farley could donate his entire comp package and it would result in a roughly $300 payment to UAW workers. UAW also gets profit sharing and a ratification bonus, meanwhile the rest of the salaried workforce - many of whom earn similar wages to UAW, will get fucked because they have actual performance metrics to hit that are being fucked by this.
  I'd also add that as a reward for having the most UAW workers in the US, Ford also has had the highest structural cost and the worst quality for 2 years running, likely 3 as measured by recalls. So they do terrible work and still get the same bonus, entirely independent of their performance.
  
  Who gives a shit?
  Most workers in America give a shit. People deserve to be more than modern day wage slaves that spend their entire paycheck on necessities, never getting ahead or being able to save for retirement. If you think this us ok, you should re-evaluate whether you're actually for lifting people out of poverty or not.
  
  Fuck man, even $300 is something to these people.
  
  They're talking nonsense in the first place, but imagine thinking $300 is a meaningless amount of money. I would have to be making CEO wages.
  
  How much do you think a UAW worker makes? Just curious
  
  According to this average is $28 an hour, which quite frankly is low as fuck. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/detroit/news/how-much-does-a-uaw-worker-make/
  
  You're neglecting the profit sharing. That has been between $9-15k over the last couple years. They also get a 401k match of like 6%. So that brings their average comp to about $35 per hour. They also frequently get overtime.
  For perspective, $28 per hour with no overtime puts them in the 58th percentile and adding in profit sharing places them in the 66th percentile for US workers. So making more than 2/3 of the working population is in fact not "low as fuck"
  
  Man, I don't think you're the type of person to see eye to eye with a workers right type asshole like me, but if $72,000 a year to you is an acceptable wage in this particular day and age, with inflation and housing prices going the way they're going, then we don't have much to say to one another. They should always fight for higher wage and I will support them all the way, educated work or not.
- record profits mean record contracts
  solidarity with all workers forever
- How do those boots taste?
- Mexican vehicle plants are showing signs of worker solidarity with their US compatriots. They have unions that were not even voted in, thats leaders vote on contracts without membership votes. https://inthesetimes.com/article/uaw-strike-international-solidarity-mexico-brazil-union-labor
- If this was the 1990s that might have worked, but today is different for Mexico. There are hundreds of factory's now and do you think Mexicans are going to want to work for a company that moved from America for not paying it's workers enough? Also one of Ford's main advertising points is that the cars are made in America, not very smart to destroy your advertising. Conditions are always changing in the world, it's best to keep an eye of them lest you get left behind.
  
  Ford's vehicles are not all made in the USA already. A little basic research goes a long way before sprouting nonsense.
  
  No issues in Cuatelan building the Maverick or the Mach E. Your argument is ridiculous
  
  They can still say “made in America “ because Mexico is in America. North America.
  
  That would not work. The English speaking world doesn't use America like that Ford would get sued as operations would still be in the US and lose.
  
  They downvoted you, but in Spanish speaking countries, America is a single continent, with North, South, center and Caribbean just being regions
  
  I dunno what Spanish speaking country you're from, but every Spanish speaker I've ever known has used "America" to casually refer to the USA.
  
  Soy de México y le dicen Estados Unidos en todo latino América
  Here's a meme from a chilean cartoonist:
  You can also check the Wikipedia page under the section "Number"
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent
  The six-continent combined-America model is taught in Greece and many Romance-speaking countries—including Latin America.[34][42]
  
  Have you really ever heard someone from Jalisco or whatever refer to themselves as "American"?
  
  From the continent America, yes
  
  What? No I mean in casual conversation. Not a technical definition, I'm talking about how people casually refer to themselves.
- Hopefully we'll see that the possibility of skilled workers with no education can also take part. And that pay is stagent. In 1995.. 50k a year w benifits health care and retirement is now the new 80k - 100k a year. Even then take home and savings is less then it's ever been in 30 years.
  Follow the math of rising cost and inflation , and the increase of CEO pays and you one can conclude, workers can be paid more and should match cost ans inflation increases. People with schooling should make more. True.
  Many companies do pay more and they make their competition looks like hacks.
  Market Basket is a unionized grocery chain in the northeast. In Saco Maine there is a market basket right near a super Walmart. Market Basket is awesome.. but I digress.
  The Makret basket has 30 checkout isles and 1 cashier and 1 bagger per checkout. They are paid very well. That's 60 employees just in the check out. Their prices are the same and many times are less then Walmart. Walmart right across the way.. 5 minutes walk.., is 100% self checkout. Pays about half, Stores completly trashed, prices are not cheper, you gotta check your self out .. and its doubtful there's even 10 staffers in store.
  In ending the older you get.. the more it seems absurd to pay the younger gen that much.. however follow the math.
  https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1996?amount=50000
  50k in 1996 is worth 98k in today's numbers. Also remember a job back then..came with healthcare that covered you at 80 bucks a month. Retirement plans exisisted .. you'd even get bonus and go to company parties that were paid by owners.
- You got a bit of brown on your nose
- What's that $100k a year adjusted to inflation compared to in your mind?
  
  $100k per year is the 81st percentile of all US workers for 2022. Inflation in 2023 has been around 4%, so even with that they would still earn more than 8 out of 10 working adults in the US.
  It's not in my mind, it's just math.
  
  $100k per year is the equivalent of $57k/yr in 2000. Inflation has gone wild in the last 20 years.
  
  That is an average of 2.5% inflation. It's really more of an issue of inflated cost of Healthcare and stagnating wages as a result. Of course this is just one contributing factor, bit it is a huge one.
  
  Which is why 100k is a reasonable ask. 50k would have been reasonable in 2000.
- Where else is that possible?
  Ford factory. Then anywhere else.

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