Fediverse @lemmy.world Otter @lemmy.ca 6 mo. ago

If we're going to have an effective strategy against FB/Meta, we should clear up some misconceptions around defederation

((I'm not an expert, I've been reading up on things as much as I can. If there's an error, I'll happily correct it!))

TLDR:

Nearly all of us distrust Meta and have the same broader goals
We need to pick the best move to go against powerful companies like Meta
Defederation may not be the right move, and it might even help Meta move forward (and more easily perform EEE)
There are other options that we can spend our energy on
It doesn't matter for Lemmy (yet), this is more a conversation for Mastodon, Firefish and Kbin

We've been getting a LOT of posts on this, but the misconceptions make it harder for us to decide what to do. If we're going to try and protect the Fediverse against large, well funded companies like Meta, figuring out the right action is important. We need to actually look at the options, consider the realistic outcomes, and plan around that.

I'm willing to bet around 95% of users on Lemmy and Mastodon CHOSE to be here because we understand the threat Meta/Facebook poses, and we want to do something about it. That's not in question here.

So in that sense, please be kind to the other user you are replying to. The vast majority of us share the same goal here. When we disagree, we disagree on the best path forward and not the goal. Wanting to stay federated DOES NOT mean the user wants to help Meta or thinks that Meta is here for our benefit.

Misconception: Defederation will hinder Meta's EEE

It might, but not necessarily, and it might even help the EEE. Here's a link to some history of EEE, what it means, and some examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish. I'd recommend at least skimming it because it's interesting (and because this isn't the only fight)

Assuming Meta is doing an EEE move, they're in the embrace stage. That’s not about us embracing them, it’s about them embracing the protocol, which they can do whether we stay federated or not.

Defederation can tell newcomers that the defederated instance is an island, and they’re better off joining the place where they can talk to their friends and see the content they want. We saw this early during the Reddit exodus with Beehaw, where many users hopped instances away from Beehaw.

Meta can more easily embrace if more people actively use their platform. They can more easily extend if we're not around to explain why extending is a poisonous action. Being federated can allow us to encourage users to ditch Meta’s platform and join an open one (ex. Mastodon, Firefish, etc.)

Misconception: Defederation is the only move

Defederation is the first option that comes to mind. It sounds simple, it is loud and newsworthy, and it can be done with the click of a mouse. But if it is a bad action, then what are the good actions?

Don't let them have a monopoly over the use of ActivityPub. Grow the other platforms: The extend stage only works when the platform gets a near monopoly over use of the standard. That brings up the first action. If there are enough users, services and resources on things like Mastodon/Lemmy, then Meta (or any other company) can't just extend the spec without causing their users to ditch Threads to stay connected to the content they want to see.
- Reach out to organizations in your area or line of work. Help them join Mastodon or other relevant Fediverse platforms. I'm sure the for-profit companies put money into this process, so brainstorm and reach out
- Add your Fediverse accounts to the bio of your other accounts, and share posts from the Fediverse elsewhere

As long as there is a healthy community away from Meta (ex. what we have right now), then they can't extend & extinguish.

Protect the Standards and share why it is important

Share posts from experts about strict adherence to standards, support regulatory and legal advocacy (interoperability requirements etc.), and educate other users about the risks.

(I didn't want to say more here because I'm not an expert, I'm happy to edit more points in)

Misconception: We should still defederate because of Privacy Risks

Not necessarily (and likely not at all?)

Meta is notorious for gathering data and then abusing that data, so this is an issue to consider. However, the way that activitypub works, the outgoing data is publicly available. Defederating with Meta doesn't prevent that, and federating doesn't give them any more data than they could get otherwise.

Misconception: Lemmy instances need to decide

This is a big point: It doesn't really matter for Lemmy right now, one way or another.

It's more of an issue when data starts coming IN to Lemmy from Mastodon and Meta's Threads (or out from Lemmy to Threads). See below

Edit to add: For now it might even be good to defederate from Lemmy as a symbolic gesture. My instance is defederated, and I don't plan on trying to change that. Ultimately it doesn't change much

Legitimate risks from Federation with Meta, and more effective ways to counter them

Algorithmic Amplification: Meta's history of using algorithms that prioritize engagement can amplify harmful or divisive content. These algorithms are not public like it is with Mastodon and other FOSS platforms.
Misinformation and Content Moderation: All Fediverse platforms will have to work on content moderation and misinformation. Platforms like Meta, focussed on profit and advertising, will likely moderate in a way that protects their income. Those moderation decisions will be federated around.
Commercialization and User Exploitation: Meta's for-profit nature means it's incentivized to maximize user engagement, at the expense of our well-being.
Additional Data on how the free fediverse interacts with their platform (this one is harder to make a counter for)

Counters:

Promote user control over their feeds, and develop USEFUL but safe and open algorithms for the feeds
Flag content and users from risky platforms, with a little warning icon and explanation (ex. 'Content is from a for-profit platform, and it may ___')
Implement features so that users can opt in or opt out from seeing content from risky platforms. In particular on explore/discover/public feeds, so it doesn't affect content the user is following.
Develop strict community guidelines that can get Meta (and other companies) sent into the 'blocked by default' bins mentioned above. (edit: There's a good point here that if Meta'a Threads is full of hatred or poor moderation, then blocking them is the right move)

Final point: Evaluate things critically. Don't even just take my word for it. I doubt Meta or other groups care enough about Lemmy yet to spread disinformation here, and every post I've seen promoting defederation feels like a good faith attempt for something they believe in. But it's still worth thinking about what we're supporting.

Sometimes what feels like a good move might not help, and could even make things worse.

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I fully agree that it doesn't matter for Lemmy right now. The issue is mostly Mastodon and Kbin, as both compete directly with Threads; and in a smaller scale Friendica, Matrix and PixelFed as they compete with FB/WhatsApp/IG.

The main reason why I support defederation is to not have users in Mastodon relying on contacts and content from Threads at all. Because, once Threads pulls off the plug (eventually they will want to), Mastodon won't be some small but stable network; it'll be a shrinking one, and that's way worse.
- Because, once Threads pulls off the plug (eventually they will want to), Mastodon won’t be some small but stable network; it’ll be a shrinking one, and that’s way worse.
  
  I don't think that's effective.
  
  Scenerio: federated
  Mastodon users stay on Mastodon, but interact with Threads. Threads eventually pulls the plug on federation. Assuming Threads ever reached critical mass, a vast amount of mastodon users now create threads accounts and move over, because well, their social circle is there.
  
  Scenario: defederated
  Assuming threads gains critical mass, a vast majority of mastodon users now create threads accounts and move over, because well, their social circle is there.
  
  The impetus is the social engagement. Social media without the social is not really useful, so if all their friends are on platform xyz, they'll use platform xyz. It does not matter in the slightest (at least, at scale!) what that platform is. WhatsApp, iMessage, vBulletin, Reddit, whatever. Sure, splintergroups exist but their of ignorable size either way, meaning the people who are currently sticking to Mastodon would not move fully over to threads in either scenario - that's why they're here right now, basically.
  
  I'm more worried about the load if it truly gets big and mastodon and threads interact a lot, tbh.
  
  The difference is the same as between boiling a frog* by throwing it in hot water, versus throwing it in cold water and heating it slowly.
  
  In the defederated scenario, people resist to ditch Mastodon and go to Threads, for ideological reasons. The only ones who'd do it are the ones who are pissed at Twitter alone, and short-sighted enough to not realise that the issue with Twitter applies to traditional social media as a whole.
  
  In the federated scenario, however, that resistance has been slowly degraded. Because Mastodon users are already interacting with Threads users, forging social bonds with them, and they'll try to avoid to lose those bonds.
  
  I’m more worried about the load if it truly gets big and mastodon and threads interact a lot, tbh.
  
  I'm a bit worried about this, too. You toot something, it gets insanely popular, and now Threads users hug your instance to death, the old Slashdot effect.
  
  *inb4 boiled frogs are bad science, but a good analogy.
  
  Fair, although to
  
  The only ones who’d do it are the ones who are pissed at Twitter alone, and short-sighted enough to not realise that the issue with Twitter applies to traditional social media as a whole.
  
  in particular I would as usual argue that such a large proportion of social media users aren't into it ("it" being socialization via digital media) for ideological reasons that they functionally drown out all other reasons. It's not a bad reason, I just don't think it's going to even show up in any statistic.
- This is another good point, and I'm not sure how best to fix that. It's so hard to get people to swap platforms, and I suspect Meta will put money into getting key people on their platform.
  
  The flagging thing might help? HCI and social networks are so nebulous that it's hard to predict what might happen. I'm not totally confident on my stance either, just that there's nuance here

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