It turns out one of my friends is a pro-Ukraine leftist type
It turns out one of my friends is a pro-Ukraine leftist type
Shouldn't have said anything, now I'm getting paragraphs upon paragraphs about Putler and how the West has a moral obligation to prolong the war in Ukraine for as long as possible 
Also while apparently it can't be denied that the far right has grown somewhat stronger in Ukraine, the Ukrainian military had to rely on militias such as Azov so they wouldn't lose, we should not worry because they haven't seen that much electoral success
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I mean, tbh, I'm a little more sympathetic on this than most Hexbears. Like, no, I don't think Putin is Satan incarnate, and yes, this whole mess is America's fault for trying to pull them into NATO. But broadly speaking all the stuff about Ukraine being Nazi-riddled as a casus beli falls flat when Putin has been happy to use far-right-wing groups like Russki Orbaz for his own benefit, and I don't think Russia is really a credible threat to western hegemony like China is, so I don't see how supporting Russia would be meaningfully revolutionarily defeatist. Sure, people like your friend are psychos who soaked up too much propaganda.
But the war is here now, and I think the only thing keeping your average Ukrainian from living in a war zone is western arms shipments, and tbh that's the only argument that I find really resonates with me.
EDIT: Lot of people big mad about this one lmao
But broadly speaking all the stuff about Ukraine being Nazi-riddled as a casus beli falls flat when Putin has been happy to use far-right-wing groups like Russki Orbaz for his own benefit, and I don't think Russia is really a credible threat to western hegemony like China is, so I don't see how supporting Russia would be meaningfully revolutionarily defeatist.
I don't even support Russia. I'm just annoyed Ukraine having a frightening amount of militant Nazi psychos is now apparently disinformatsiya invented by the Kremlin when Western press was regularly mentioning the problem before the war.
Yeah, the Casus Belli is flimsy af. Just because it is true, or largely true, is not sufficient to mean that this was the real reason for Putin's move.
I think that the breakaway states in the Donbass need(ed) to be defended and that the Crimea was under threat as the next likely target but this was a geopolitical manoeuvre imo.
Idk it's just hard to swallow Russia's military offensive as being anti-fascist when you have Putin repatriating the remains of Denikin and Ivan Ilyin to inter them with state honours.
If defending Crimea was all that was happening, then yeah, I'd agree with you. But Putin's stated goal is "denazification," which I don't really see any way to interpret except as overthrowing the government and installing one he likes better.
Putin wanted Ukraine to denazify since before the invasion and has stated as much. If you look at the actual Minsk Accords, they aren't demanding the ousting of the Ukrainian government. What Putin does care about are the literal Nazi paramilitary-turned-military who were spearheading the attacks on Donbas for eight years. The banderites are a real problem in Ukraine for many reasons and represent a political problem to Russia, it makes perfect sense for denazification of Ukraine to be a sincere demand, though obviously Russia doesn't give a shit about denazifying itself beyond occassional checks on the actual ethnonationalist political movements (like Navalny, Rest In
PowerPiss)
Maybe you should have based your understanding of the conflict on imperialism, rather than aesthetics. The importance of ideology in fascism must be repudiated.
I don't think that this is a very charitable interpretation of what I have said.
I explained why I do not agree with Russia's military offensive as being about denazification. I didn't explain how I personally understand the conflict myself or what I am drawing upon to analyse it.
@ElGosso@hexbear.net This argument is completely devoid of any understanding of how US imperialism created this war, or the self-determination by citizens in Donetsk and Luhansk to leave a state that came to be run by NATO-backed torturers filled with historical fantasies of racism makes Russia look fairly reluctant to participate in it.
the only thing keeping your average Ukrainian from living in a war zone is western arms shipments, and tbh that’s the only argument that I find really resonates with me
Why would this argument resonate with anyone? Are you basing your understanding of Ukraine off post-2022 discourse? You think those concert-bombing wheeled artillery pieces are protecting civilians? You should take a look at SBU headquarters, Patriot batteries can't even do anything against their new weapons. They're certainly not for destroying apartment complexes or community centers.
The USA has fomented far right parties in Ukraine since WWII but what Nuland and friends have done since 2014 is truly despicable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmaakY-PIAc
It's actually crazy that you can get away with saying "western arms shipments keep Ukrainians from living in a war zone" on this site. How stupid are these people? Do they not realize a civil war was raging for a decade? By the way, are you German? There's no way you're actually German and saying this.
@goog@hexbear.net I don't appreciate you making comments about stupid people. I've talked mostly to smart people who misuse it. I value my peculiar stupidities. I'm not German, I'm doing stupid computer things.
Meeting a German with good opinions about Ukraine online would just be interesting!
maybe someday
I found YouTube links in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Link 1:
Link 2:
Don't really disagree with much here.
But would it be wrong to say that a fairly significant difference is that while the Russian state is using fascist groups, in Ukraine it's the other way around and fascist groups are using and to some extent even controlling the state?
I dunno, but I just can't forget that classic video from before the invasion, where Zelensky was trying to get his (supposedly) own troops to stop shelling the eastern regions and they literally just laughed in his face and told him to gtfo.
I mean, maybe at some level but certainly not enough to make one side worth supporting over the other. Like ElGosso mentioned, the best thing is going to be what minimizes suffering for normal civilians, and I don't think that supporting Russia is the best way to that goal
Russia does not have an overt policy of cultural genocide in place for people in the contested territory, Ukraine does. That calculus makes Russia the path to fewer casualties imo
I don’t think Russia is really a credible threat to western hegemony like China is
List of people disagreeing with you on that is pretty long, starting from the governments of every AES and every western state.
the only thing keeping your average Ukrainian from living in a war zone is western arms shipments
What the actual fuck bruh, did you see they are now drafting people with down syndrome?
EDIT: Lot of people big mad about this one lmao
Certified smug
momentI think you're broadly correct, though I'd argue the Ukrainian fascist issue is worse, due to structural conditions in their state.
I will say that due to broadly friendly Russia-China relations, a Russian victory would substantially benefit China and allow greater penetration for its overland trade routes. From what I hear they've driven a hard bargin for even the current aid to Russia
This is a way for the arms industry to continue to expand and malign the world. Ultimately it's all about profits, and our duty is to sever them from their ill gotten gains. That means we shouldnt allow them to export anything. This won't be the final war they make
But the war is here now, and I think the only thing keeping your average Ukrainian from living in a war zone is western arms shipments, and tbh that's the only argument that I find really resonates with me.
What are you smoking to accept this broken logic? The ukrofascists having infinite resources is the main thing keeping Ukrainians in a warzone. If they are cut off, the Russians overrun them and the war is over.
I initially misread their opinion thinking they meant this:
The ukrofascists having infinite resources is the main thing keeping Ukrainians in a warzone.
I thought it was a perfectly reasonable comment until I realized they meant the complete opposite.