"Fascism is when I don't like something, and the more I don't like it, the more fascist it is"
"Fascism is when I don't like something, and the more I don't like it, the more fascist it is"
For those who actually want fascism to mean something, Umberto Eco's 14 key points of Ur-Fascism are handy:
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"The cult of tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.
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"The rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.
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"The cult of action for action's sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
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"Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.
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"Fear of difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
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"Appeal to a frustrated middle class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
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"Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society. Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
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Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
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"Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.
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"Contempt for the weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.
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"Everybody is educated to become a hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
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"Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality".
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"Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people".
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"Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
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you can also read mussolini. he says explicitly what fascism is and why. eco is not singularly authoritative on fascism, and his definition gives liberal democracies far too much leeway. modern america, and much of the rest of the developed world, is doing exactly what mussolini would have had us do.
democrats and republicans are both fascist. they don't need to be hitler to be protecting the interest and primacy of the state at the expense of the interests and power of all other institutions. in fact, having hitler as a foil serves well to protect them from accusations of fascism.
you can also read mussolini. he says explicitly what fascism is and why.
Cool, I actually have. Have you actually read the Doctrine of Fascism?
eco is not singularly authoritative on fascism, and his definition gives liberal democracies far too much leeway.
Yes, how horrible that a definition of fascism might have traits that exclude one of the primary ideological foes of fascism even according to fascism itself?
democrats and republicans are both fascist. they don’t need to be hitler to be protecting the interest and privacy of the state at the expense of the interests and power of all other institutions.
How positively unhinged.
in fact, having hitler as a foil serves well to protect them from accusations of fascism.
Oh yes, how horrible would it be if non-fascists used fascists as a point of comparison to prove that they aren't fascists.
liberal democracies are breeding grounds for fascism. every fascist regime has emerged from them.
liberal democracies are breeding grounds for fascism. every fascist regime has emerged from them.
How would you characterize the right-wing of the Kuomintang under Chiang Kai-shek?
it's not mussolini's fascism, where the state brings all other institutions in line with its interests. fascism is a specific thing. that's what the meme is about.
it’s not mussolini’s fascism, where the state brings all other institutions in line with its interests.
Oh? In what way was the right-Kuomintang NOT seeking to bring all other institutions in line with its interests?
fascism is a specific thing. that’s what the meme is about.
Yes, and you seem to be confused about the definition of fascism, since, in the short time we've been talking, you've labeled Republicans and Democrats as fascists, but not the Kuomintang under Chiang Kai-shek.
mussolini specifically wanted to shift away from individualism, whereas (at least in lip service) chiangs plan was to teach democracy to the Chinese. a military dictatorship does have a lot of similarity to fascism, though. I suppose I can see where, in this one case, an agrarian societies emergence from warlordism may have been fascist.
mussolini specifically wanted to shift away from individualism, whereas (at least in lip service) chiangs plan was to teach democracy to the Chinese.
Oh, in that case I suppose we can take Mussolini's lip service about fascism actually being the purest form of democracy at its face value as well.
a military dictatorship does have a lot of similarity to fascism, though. I suppose I can see where, in this one case, an agrarian societies emergence from warlordism may have been fascist.
In which case the question arises - what kind of government is the cure for fascism, since liberal democracy is apparently right out?
personally, I prefer anarchism. without a state, a state cannot coopt all of society.
personally, I prefer anarchism. without a state, a state cannot coopt all of society.
That's a long discussion just waiting to be had. But if liberal democracy is fascist because it can lead to fascism, then, if your only counterproposal is anarchy, are not all modern states fascists and run by fascists?
lmao either say what you're trying to say or shut the fuck up. Stop trying to cryptically flex historical knowledge when you clearly are just trying to simp for Democrats who, by the way, are very clearly fascist in actions, words, style. The Dems play just as much into military machismo culture as the Republicans, they just want gay soldiers to die in war, too.
lmao either say what you’re trying to say or shut the fuck up.
"I don't think you know what you're talking about and a simple historical example will show as much"?
Stop trying to cryptically flex historical knowledge when you clearly are just trying to simp for Democrats who, by the way, are very clearly fascist in actions, words, style.
Yow.
Yes exactly, your point is "I think I'm smarter than you." That's a shitty point. People can be educated on fascism and not know about the history of fascism in every country 🙄
If someone claims "Every fascist regime emerges from liberal democracy", and I contradict them with an example of fascism emerging from a non-liberal origin, I guess that's... what, a red card? Orange? I don't know sports very well. What kind of foul am I looking at here for "Showing a point is blatantly and factually wrong"?
If you wanted to say that's what you meant, you could have said that lmao that's my point you dumbass
If you wanted to say that’s what you meant, you could have said that lmao that’s my point you dumbass
That's literally what I did say. An example of fascism emerging from a non-liberal origin.
there is a cure for political illiteracy.
this guy is a grade-A brainwashee
LMAO democrats being the primary foe of fascism. Have you never heard of.... any left wing theory? 😂😂😂
The Clinton campaign's strategy was literally promoting Trump. They want to promote the most extreme, overtly bigoted Republicans so that they seem like a good deal in comparison. This isn't something I made up, it was their actual campaign strategy.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428/
They prop up extremists to try to get people to vote for their LGBT-friendly center-right party instead of voting left. All the policies that impact fascist imperial power [war-mongering, healthcare (not having access to healthcare outside of work weakens the labor movement/left wing organizing), immigration etc] stay largely the same.
Stop trying to be a pompous ass about what you have and haven't read and pay attention.
LMAO democrats being the primary foe of fascism.
Liberal democracies was the point of contention. And the Doctrine of Fascism literally goes over this point.
The Clinton campaign’s strategy was literally promoting Trump. They want to promote the most extreme, overtly bigoted Republicans so that they seem like a good deal in comparison.
"We gambled that the American people would soundly reject fascism, and we lost that gamble. Therefore, we are now fascists"?
Stop trying to be a pompous ass about what you have and haven’t read and pay attention.
I didn't realize that when someone says "You can read Mussolini to see what fascism is" I'm not allowed to say "I have" without being a pompous ass.
Yeah, you know damn well that Democrats are one of the major parties in the US liberal Democracy, and you know damn well you are trying to defend them.
They gambled fascism because their policy is not far enough away from the Republican ideology for it to have been a serious existential concern. You're almost there....
And yes, the way you said " Actually, I have read it" and immediately was like "ohhh but have you read this??" was extremely pompous and gross lol
They gambled fascism because their policy is not far enough away from the Republican ideology for it to have been a serious existential concern.
Oh? Is that why?
And yes, the way you said " Actually, I have read it" and immediately was like “ohhh but have you read this??” was extremely pompous and gross lol
Well, I'm sorry for being a pompous intellectual who 'reads things' and 'responds when told to read something he has already read and in fact contradicts the point being made'.
Dude is really upset you read more than him. Lmaoo
in fact contradicts the point being made
it doesn't
If you just name titles of books and concepts, you're not contradicting any points you're leaving the contradiction as an exercise to the reader and like, bragging about reading which is obnoxious and which you're doing again here 😂
I apologize for being literate and being able to respond when someone asks me "Have you read X?"
It's not that you read, it's that you name drop books and knowledge instead of incorporating them into a discussion. And your self-defensive posture of "well SORRY for READING" is like the oldest trick in the manipulator's book.
It's not that you read, it's that you brag about reading in a way that doesn't contribute to the conversation. It's not that you responded, it's that you responded in a way that turned the suggestion into a pissing match of who has read what.
I'm telling you this, but I'm sure you know this because you probably do this all the time to give yourself an ego boost.
It’s not that you read, it’s that you name drop books and knowledge instead of incorporating them into a discussion.
Oh, okay. Who brought up reading Mussolini in this discussion, again, and used it as an assertion of fascism's definition, without ever defining fascism with the actual writings of Mussolini? Was it me or the other commenter? Sorry, I'm very scatter-brained, you'll have to remind me.
they said if you want to learn more about a topic that they described, that you can read Mussolini.
you responsed with a sarcastic "Cool" and said oh by the way have you actually even read Mussolini?
I can't be the first person to tell you how obnoxious you are lol. And I know you know what you're doing lol.
BoTh sIdEs
Two of the approximately 13,567 sides, actually