Flag is just a piece of cloth
Flag is just a piece of cloth
I don't understand this weird American obsession with flag. I was looking at some photos of Trump's rallies. Flags everywhere - on shirts, hats, glasses etc. And this bizarre cult of the flag - "it cannot touch the ground" etc.
At the end of the day the flag is just a piece of cloth. If you worship any flag or take offense to any flag, you need to get a life.
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Warning: my takes on this are probably even more unpopular than the OP. I typically don't mention them to avoid whining, but since we're in a comm for unpopular opinions, might as well speak my mind.
A country flag is neither a symbol of your people, nor of the general population under the same government as you. It's the symbol of the government itself - an abstract entity, best seen as some sort of tool.
People who wave flags strongly remind me cows shaking their arses to show that they've been branded as property. "MOO! I'M PROUD OF BEING OWNED! MOO!"
Against the above, some might argue that their governments' flags used to represent some popular movement, or similar. Well, it is not your flag any more; co-opting symbols is bread-and-butter of exerting soft power over you.
And if you do feel the need of a flag for your identity... sorry to be blunt but you have millions of identities at your disposal; if the one that you pick is what subjects you, you probably need to touch some grass.
"But the president/king/minister said that..." - of course governments will tell you otherwise, it's convenient for them. But, most likely, not for you.
I understand your view, but it depends on your country. In Denmark the flag is used in a different way in everyday life I think. And I would say there are good reasons to be proud of Denmark as a country and the people have done well to own the flag themselves in this way. But yea, it can also be used in bad ways.
Sorry for the battering of rhetorical questions, but...
...what is "to be proud of a country"?
Achievements of people from the past? But you see people with laudable achievements through the whole world. Why specifically those associated with your country, instead of, say, another? And more importantly, why aren't we proud of what we, as individuals, do with our present?
Proud of a culture? I get that people relate to others sharing their culture; but contrariwise to what that Napoleonic meme says (with all its disgusting implications), countries don't need to coincide with cultures. Cue to Switzerland, a clusterfuck since HRE times, faring far better than a Portugal who has been culturally homogeneous since 1100.
And even demarcating cultures, gets tricky and arbitrary. It's all a bunch of continua. Eventually this sort of proudness will boil down to "I'm drawing the line HERE. This one is from this side of the line, so I'm proud of them. That one isn't, so who cares."
Is it being proud of your impact on others, through your everyday interactions? But most people in a country - even a small one (more like Andorra than Denmark) - are not meaningfully affected by you.
So, to keep it short: every single thing that we could be proud of, as human beings, is better serviced by either a smaller or bigger identity.
No need to be sorry :)
Achievements of people from the past?
[...]
Is it being proud of your impact on others, through your everyday interactions?
Definitely more the latter rather than the former. There is a great deal of trust in Danish society. There is a shared understanding, community and culture that Danes are proudly part of - proud because we believe it is a good culture (and I think the happiness scores that get released every so often for different countries speak for themselves).
But most people in a country - even a small one (more like Andorra than Denmark) - are not meaningfully affected by you.
I don't see it like that. Yes, someone living in the other part of Denmark doesn't directly affect me of course. But I do think they meaningfully affect me, even if in a small part. I think Denmark is still small enough that it matters that someone in the big city in the other part of the country is still connected to me by culture and a shared "zeitgeist", if that makes sense.
Anyways, I hope you can maybe understand that for some people, there can be such a thing as being proud of your country. You don't have to understand fully though, I understand it can be hard coming from another culture (also it's not like I speak for all Danes obviously and some would certainly disagree with what I'm saying here). I would encourage you to try visiting Denmark one day and maybe see for yourself :)
Definitely more the latter [...] countries speak for themselves).
What you talk about, concerning "trust in the Danish society", is clearly a cultural matter. And, as I highlighted in the other comment, cultures neither coincide with countries, nor they should.
I don’t see it like that. Yes, someone living in the other part of Denmark doesn’t directly affect me of course. But I do think they meaningfully affect me, even if in a small part.
We could spend weeks discussing what to "meaningfully affect someone else" entails, but that would be pushing a boundary line back and forth between points of a gradient, to force a conclusion for either side. (That's always a problem when trying to handle quantitative matters with qualitative labels.)
However: no matter where you put that line, it won't coincide with the country, because some people from other countries affect you more than some people from the same country as you. Perhaps because they're shaping what you think, perhaps because they have political power (even over other countries than yours), so goes on. (The opposite is also true - you're likely affecting far some people from other countries than some other people from within your country.)
Anyways, I hope you can maybe understand that for some people, there can be such a thing as being proud of your country.
If I may be honest, the argumentation that you're using is mostly the same as I've seen coming from other people. It is not a matter of "lack of understanding", but disagreement.
cultures neither coincide with countries
I think that's very reductionist. Countries clearly have a large influence on culture and culture often forms around countries as people in a country share borders and law and politics and all that.
Anyways, we can agree to disagree if you insist. I do think you're being slightly closed-minded in this case though, but it's not a big deal.
Countries clearly have a large influence on culture
To influence is not the same as to dictate. And the ways that a country influences culture of its citizens are, most of the time, shitty - cue to the linked example of Vergonha. (It's actually a mild example, when you remember that massacres are a damn efficient way to have "a large influence on culture".)
And, sure, there are even milder versions of that. And considerably less efficient.
culture often forms around countries as people in a country share borders and law and politics and all that.
And it forms also across the borders too, to such an extent that "we have the same head of state" and "we're subjected to the same laws" become just a drop in an ocean. Food gets shared, people learn each other's languages (or make a contact language in the spot, that eventually is passed to their children), fashion and architectural trends get mimicked... even the laws get mimicked. Or they simply are born in a place and move 5km next door, and that happens to be the other country already.
Of course, as long as the countries aren't artificially trying to prevent that from happening.
Anyways, we can agree to disagree if you insist. I do think you’re being slightly closed-minded in this case though, but it’s not a big deal.
I don't think that I'm being closed-minded, but that I'm taking more things into account than you are.
My vaugue understanding as a dumb American is that folk in other countries by and large aren't about repping flags in the first place, flying them, wearing them, etc
I've seen this in my chunk of South America. It isn't exclusive to Americans.
I can’t speak for other countries, but here in the UK the National flags tend to be flown for two reasons:
- Sporting events
There are shit loads of St George crosses being flown at the moment, because the England team has got through the Euro football finals. If we lose tonight, they’ll begin to disappear tomorrow.
- “Patrotism”
You’ll mostly see the Union flag being flown in areas of high racism. Deprived areas, where people have been made to believe that forrins took their jobs and welfare money. They display the flag to show that they’re “true Brits”, unlike all those brown folk.
Outside of this it’s quite unusual for regular people to display either of the national flags. I can’t say I’ve ever owned one, and I’m in my 40s. That said, I’m not terribly nationalistic. I’m proud of my country in terms of how it looks, and how we (now) preserve our long history, but I’m also painfully aware of the failings of the UK, and more specifically, England over the past few centuries.
Yeah, while obnoxious us patriotism used to be relatively innocent, at this point I immediately assume anybody with a flag is the absolute worst of us.
Not in the same way. In the US I believe you swear to the flag or something? Which seems super strange to me.
In Denmark the flag is used in basically any celebration, especially birthdays. It's common to have a cake with as many flags on as your age (usually for kids).
It's common to have a cake with as many flags on as your age
Luckily that flag is easy to emulate. Imagine trying to frost 10 American flags onto a cake.
Oh usually it's small paper flags stuck into the cake on small wooden sticks, not frosting :)
That makes more sense. Thanks.
If you want to get technical about it, it's a symbol of a nation's military. That was what national flags were originally for.
it’s a symbol of a nation’s military
Not any more. You're 100% right on the origin, but the symbol eventually became of the whole structure of power that [typically] includes the military.
That's why for example even countries without an army or a navy still have flags.
I get it. It's not really a true choice though. Like bring born in the United States makes it difficult to move and become a citizen elsewhere, where I could waive a different flag (of choice).
It's a simple as being born into it and being prideful of whatever it is you are. Typical pride involves surname, race/ethnicity, religion, state, country, brands of things... I mean.. It's whatever one is proud of having. Some things are by choice and others are by birth. 🤷
The difference between country and all those other "not a true choice" things that you listed is pointlessness.
A surname is still about your kin. Race is arguably also about kin*. Religion will probably dictate your behaviour, or at least principles. Brand is a damn silly identity, but I get that - it's still about things that you enjoy.
Country though? In larger countries this boils down to "land that you never saw, people whom you'll never interact". In smaller ones it boils down to "a fraction of the lands you saw, and people whom you interacted with". All because you pay taxes to the same government?
*I say "arguably" because race is still a damn silly identity, unless you use it to highlight oppression and gather other people to end said oppression. But past that I don't think that anyone should see themself as an Amerindian, a black person, a white person, but rather as simply "a person".
Brand is a damn silly identity, but I get that - it's still about things that you enjoy.
I completely agree. Especially when someone gets so upset about criticism of their preferred OS owner (Apple vs. Android fanatics).
I'll also add sports teams into the mix. Some people get so ravenous about their support for a certain team, or criticism of said team.
except governments change a lot more than flags do.
In those situations, the newer government is simply seizing the symbols and the perceived "legacy" of the older one. Typically while claiming itself a successor state of the former.
People who wave flags strongly remind me cows shaking their arses to show that they've been branded as property. "MOO! I'M PROUD OF BEING OWNED! MOO!"
🤣🤣🤣 I am definitely stealing this one.