This happened a while ago but the irony is just so palpable
This happened a while ago but the irony is just so palpable
This comment was in response to someone expressing regret about joining .ml if I recall correctly
Edit: I'm convinced all this guy does is camp out in front of his computer and wait for an excuse to abuse what itty bitty power he has.
You're viewing part of a thread.
Genocide denialism is probably one of the least objectionable reasons to get banned from a community.
It's genocide vs genocide, really.
Yeah. Unfortunately. All we can do is voice opposition to whichever one is achieving its goals at any given moment - Hamas in the immediate aftermath of October 7th, and Israel now.
Maybe someday they'll sit the fuck down and figure out that this conflict can't continue forever. Well, Hamas and Bibi never will, but whatever representatives of the Palestinian and Israeli people emerge from the other side of this phase of our everlasting Israel-Palestine conflict.
Or you can oppose both.
Well, yes, but the one most 'in swing' at any given time takes precedence in terms of attention given.
The idea that there's a good guy and a bad guy when it comes to war is stupid.
... okay?
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The fault is on both of them, really. Israel had plenty of warnings from Jordan, Egypt, the US, the EU and their own security agency about an attack in October.
Of course, there is always an attack, and Israel is also not allowed to stop an attack before it happens, instead only after it happens.
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Well they were actually attacked from more than just Hamas, but it is Hamas that perpetrated the massacres. It doesn't help that Hamas took hostages. If there were no hostage-taking, none of this would be as messy as it is.
In my personal armchair opinion, I think Israel should've waited before immediately going for the hostages to get some international support. But then again, that's giving Hamas power.
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Truly barbaric.
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A genocide isn’t waging war, a genocide is actively hunting civilians and making life impossible.
Yeah, that's what Israel is doing
I don't know what else you get from Israel's actions and stated concerns. In a year, they've killed a greater percentage of Gazans than Coalition forces killed Iraqis in all ~10 years of the Iraq War. And Coalition forces in Iraq were (rightfully) accused of being metaphorically trigger-happy.
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By Israel's own admission they kill two civilians for every Hamas soldier.
Israeli soldiers film themselves committing war crimes and dancing on the graves of Palestinian civilians they've killed.
What more do you want?
Please don't use Al Jazeera, they are owned by the Qatari government, which is the same government that actively holds Hamas leadership. They are extraordinarily biased and not to be taken seriously.
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So, what would you accept as a credible source for Israeli genocide, theoretically?
I can't speak for them, but a general consensus among Western governments.
What's a consensus, in this case? Supermajority? Plurality?
Majority. As long as they can present convincing evidence (i.e. evidence that doesn't rely on trusting the word of Hamas and/or their friends in Doha and Tehran).
Edit: I'll also say that I trust some Western governments more than others. I'll take the word of the current German government over that of the current Italian one, for example.
Understanding that any government declaration that Israel is committing genocide would necessarily require politically hazardous action in accompaniment, do you require that the majority of Western governments declare Israel is committing genocide, or only that a significant and credible portion of the legal and foreign policy institutions of Western governments declare as much?
Ideally I would want to see governmental acknowledgment, but I wouldn't call it a hard requirement. But ultimately it depends on the evidence presented, and on the people and institutions who agree/disagree with it. I can't really give you a more firm answer than that.
Alright, so what do you think about...
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce48wpd08pgo
https://apnews.com/article/spain-israel-icj-genocide-case-67d4d9b8ecf6fd88e718319a5d93465a
https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/
At what point does the accusation of genocide towards Israel's behavior become plausible?
What about the Israeli government themselves claiming a (very dubious) 50/50 civilian-militant casualty ratio? We've flattened cities in WW2 with better casualty ratios than that.
What about prominent members of the Israeli government openly saying the intention is to commit genocide?
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As mentioned above, there is no genocide, and that’s why no credible source is speaking about a genocide.
Theoretically speaking, what sources would you accept as authoritative on the matter of an ongoing genocide?
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There is no credible authority body that calles or doesn’t call something genocide, genocide has a very clear definition and genocide is defined according to that definition,
Then why say
and that’s why no credible source is speaking about a genocide.
as an objection?
You're all over the place.
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UN isn't a credible source
Did you really just "fake news" the UN? LOL!
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A genocide is what hamas did on 7th October
Okay, so you're just making shit up as you go along.
One attack cannot be a genocide.
An ongoing campaign to deprive an entire population of food, water, medicine, electricity, and any route to escape is pretty fucking obviously within the UN definition of genocide.
Hamas has stated clearly that their desire is the extermination of Jews globally.
In 2017, they changed it to just Israel, but Hamas forces don't actually use that charter.
... does it matter what they say or doesn't it?
You're not trying to have it both ways anywhere near as badly as this schmuck, but you are trying to have it both ways.
Of course it matters what either side says, especially if what they say is genocide.
Neither Gaza nor Israel are innocent in the war.
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Have you been living under a rock and purposefully avoiding all the coverage of how Israel have been bombing these "open civilian corridors"?
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67114281
Maybe you missed the news of how Israel have spent millions of dollars on killing more than 200 aid workers.
You claim intention is needed. What do you call intentionally shelling the "civilian corridors" they themselves tell people to use?
They trap them inside, and shell them continuously. More than a 150'000 people have died as just an indirect cause, being denied clean water, food, shelter and medical supplies.
I'll give you a quick tldr; because I know to won't.
20 out of Gaza's 22 hospitals were damaged or destroyed during the first 2 months, 14 of which suffered direct attacks from Israel.
What do you think the intent is behind taking out hospitals? I think the intent is to deny medical aid to the hundreds of thousands civilian casualties.
By everything you yourself have stated. What they're doing is a genocide. Their intention is to exterminate the Palestinian people. Gaza will be reduced to rubble. Along with everyone in it. And after there's nothing left and no one can live there. Israel will sieze it.
This little port you think you can use as proof otherwise is nothing but bare minimum to try and make it seem like that's not what they're doing. Like a child pretending to cough so they can stay home from school.
Please be aware that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, meaning that they don't have a strict militia, and they often disguise themselves as civilians. So long as Hamas continues to hide in civilian infrastructure, legally, the IDF can continue these attacks.
The UN has told Hamas to stop this for decades, but it's fallen on deaf ears and is likely to continue.
Likewise, where is your evidence of the 150k figure? Isn't the figure 38-40k?
Estimations of indirect deaths varies of course since they are more difficult.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext
The 150k includes these indirect deaths. Deaths from starvation, trampling, disease and sickness as a result of the war.
Not peer-reviewed, not relevant.
Correspondence: Our readers’ reflections on content published in the Lancet journals or on other topics of general interest to our readers. These letters are not normally externally peer reviewed.
Don't use anything non-peer-reviewed as evidence. It's disingenuous.
We will not have any evidence until after the war is over and bodies can start being dug up from under the demolished buildings and infrastructure.
If you look at their wording they make it clear it's not "implausible" to believe the current toll including starvation etc is up towards or above 180'000.
Likewise the toll can be less than what it is currently. Your point has zero evidence, so stop saying that it's 180k. It's disingenuous.
Our only evidence is from the Hamas-run ministry, which says 40k. However, it's unclear whether or not they include their own forces as civilians, or even how accurate it is, considering they regularly make mistakes.
Gaza had an estimated population of about 2 million people.
We know that 35% of the buildings in Gaza is severely damaged or destroyed. Very little aid is reaching their target, hospitals are destroyed.
There is nothing disingenuous about me agreeing with them that it's plausible that an estimated number of deaths as a result from the war is up towards 180 thousand.
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You think that is an argument? "Hamas" have used it, that's it? Hamas has also been using H20 in vast quantities. You gonna stop drinking water too?
"Are likely very off and purely fictional", If you were capable of reading it yourself instead of just letting your little AI bot do it. You would know why and how they arrive at these estimates. Since they list their sources and references that lead to their estimates. and what they are attributed to
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Yes. They do. If you actually read them you would know. For example. In the second link. It's explicitly stated in the first paragraph.
A convoy of vehicles carrying fleeing civilians in Gaza that was hit by a deadly airstrike was travelling on one of the two roads identified by the Israeli army as “safe routes” to the southern half of the strip, according to analysis.
You must have "missed" that.
It's funny because any criticism you will drape it as antisemitism. The proof is so overwhelming. Bombing of safe routes, taking out hospitals as a first priority, little by little they are already reducing the strip to rubble. That's not me thinking they will. That's them currently doing it.
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And what makes you think "spinscore.io" is a bias free tool for fact checking or that they even check the facts at all? It's an "AI" of which you have no idea how it works or what it takes into consideration. As far as we know. It will suggest that you should put glue on pizza.
What gives "spinscore.io" any credibility at all?
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No, your reliance on AI shows you have little to no understanding in what they are and how they work.
They state very clearly how and why they arrive at these estimations. You have so many references and articles that they link you to, to show you where they are getting the information to come to their conclusion.
You are really sitting there saying you don't know how to fact check an estimate. Do you understand what an estimate is? how we reach estimates? What might make them more or less probable?
As far as I'm concerned, it's genocide vs genocide, as it has been since ancient history.