Update to Terms of Service + New Bylaws (Protections for users)
Update to Terms of Service + New Bylaws (Protections for users)
Hey all,
In light of recent events concerning one of our communities (/c/vegan), we (as a team) have spent the last week working on how to address better some concerns that had arisen between the moderators of that community and the site admin team. We always strive to find a balance between the free expression of communities hosted here and protecting users from potentially harmful content.
We as a team try to stick to a general rule of respect and consideration for the physical and mental well-being of our users when drafting new rules and revising existing ones. Furthermore, we've done our best to try to codify these core beliefs into the additions to the ToS and a new by-laws section.
ToS Additions
That being said, we will be adding a new section to our “terms of service” concerning misinformation. While we do try to be as exact as reasonably able, we also understand that rules can be up to interpretation as well. This is a living document, and users are free to respectfully disagree. We as site admins will do our best to consider the recommendations of all users regarding potentially revising any rules.
Regarding misinformation, we've tried our best to capture these main ideas, which we believe are very reasonable:
- Users are encouraged to post information they believe is true and helpful.
- We recommend users conduct thorough research using reputable scientific sources.
- When in doubt, a policy of “Do No Harm”, based on the Hippocratic Oath, is a good compass on what is okay to post.
- Health-related information should ideally be from peer-reviewed, reproducible scientific studies.
- Single studies may be valid, but often provide inadequate sample sizes for health-related advice.
- Non-peer-reviewed studies by individuals are not considered safe for health matters.
We reserve the right to remove information that could cause imminent physical harm to any living being. This includes topics like conversion therapy, unhealthy diets, and dangerous medical procedures. Information that could result in imminent physical harm to property or other living beings may also be removed.
We know some folks who are free speech absolutists may disagree with this stance, but we need to look out for both the individuals who use this site and for the site itself.
By-laws Addition
We've also added a new by-laws section as well as a result of this incident. This new section is to better codify the course of action that should be taken by site and community moderators when resolving conflict on the site, and also how to deal with dormant communities.
This new section provides also provides a course of action for resolving conflict with site admin staff, should it arise. We want both the users and moderators here to feel like they have a voice that is heard, and essentially a contact point that they can feel safe going to, to “talk to the manager” type situation, more or less a new Lemmy.World HR department that we've created as a result of what has happened over the last week.
Please feel free to raise any questions in this thread. We encourage everyone to please take the time to read over these new additions detailing YOUR rights and how we hope to better protect everyone here.
https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#80-misinformation
https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/
Sincerely,
FHF / LemmyWorld Operations Team
EDIT:
We will be releasing a separate post regarding the moderation incident in the next 24-48 hours, just getting final approval from the team.
EDIT 2 (2024-08-31):
We've posted a response, sorry for the delay.
👉 https://lemmy.world/post/19264848 👈
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OK, so some counters:
- I mean, plenty of pet-keeping practices can count as some form of animal abuse but are readily tolerated.
- EG, It's fairly common for cats to be prevented form hunting other animals like birds etc through bells on collars or even keeping them indoors. From what I've seen, this genuinely makes cats sad and bored ... but it's done a lot and for good reason as they're really obligate hunters. There's also how a lot of dog owners treat dogs too which frankly can be damn right heart breaking.
- "Obligate carnivore" doesn't mean that much. They have nutritional needs which either can or cannot be met by various food production techniques.
- And it's important to note that pet food is not a well regulated industry with high quality produce. AFAIU, cats mainly (or exclusively) require a single and very simple molecule, taurine, which is easily produced synthetically or artificially. Moreover, I'd wager that a lot of commercial cat food has synthetic taurine added to it rather than getting it from carnivorous sources (cuz it'd be cheaper), which is at least suggested by the linked wikipedia article (genuinely curious about this if anyone knows more).
- Additionally, cats probably require a certain balance of proteins and fats that might be difficult to reproduce from non-animalistic sources.
All up, pets are absolutely subjected to human codes of ethics and values ... they're pets and subjecting them to our needs, desires and demands is exactly what owning a pet is all about (for better or worse).
If you have problems with that, I personally understand, but modifying their diet without wanting to sacrifice their health is very much the type of thing that pet ownership is generally all about. The lines being drawn here seem to me to not be about the specific issue of whether a vegan cat diet is feasible ... and merely talking about it a reasonable thing ... but about how one feels about vegans in general.
On which, accusing vegans of animal abuse is certainly a choice. From what I've seen, any conversation about this from a vegan was always starting from a position of caring about the dietary requirements of cats (which may be more than what some pet food manufacturers and pet owners do) and being informed about them. Whether that's what happened in the relevant incident, I'm not sure, but the bits I've seen certainly indicate that it could have been reasonable too.
Which all comes back to my original point ... what is moderation to bring to such a conversation and situation and what are its aims?
Which all comes back to my original point … what is moderation to bring to such a conversation and situation and what are its aims?
Remove posts that have a serious potential to seriously harm cats, by making newer vegans believe it's okay to feed cats a vegan diet?
The issue here is that nowadays these posts become information to others. That's what the internet has become. People no longer read something like this, and then first talk to 2-3 vets about it before deciding, they read that "Yo totally fine to torture your cats, k" and then do it.
And it’s important to note that pet food is not a well regulated industry with high quality produce. AFAIU, cats mainly (or exclusively) require a single and very simple molecule, taurine, which is easily produced synthetically or artificially. Moreover, I’d wager that a lot of commercial cat food has synthetic taurine added to it rather than getting it from carnivorous sources (cuz it’d be cheaper), which is at least suggested by the linked wikipedia article (genuinely curious about this if anyone knows more).
As someone whose FwB works with pets professionally, it's difficult to be more wrong, but granted that's for my central european context. There are absolutely bad cat foods about, but even those are not truly dangerous for the cat involved. They might have a higher percentage of grain added, but you're right in that to a degree this is doable for a cat.
Note however that many pure-grain or high-grain foods will be explicitly marked as "Not meant as a sole food item" over here, and have to be: They're not a balanced nutritional diet. Even worse, some add sugar, and now we're getting into truly shitty territory that sadly isn't clamped down on hard enough, this gets added to make the food look and smell better to the owner, while being either irrelevant or usually bad for the cat (since they consume too many calories for the amount of nourishment they get). However, again, as a supplementary item it'd not be terminal or something.
And that's kinda the thing here:
- Can you feed your cat vegan stuff? Absolutely, and in fact a large percentage of what they consume will be vegan, usually mixed into other foods. For example my cat currently has 30% vegetables in her main food (the other 70% is meat). The jelly food she gets for extra fluid intake is even 55% vegan components.
- Should you feed your cat a vegan diet? Absolutely not, because that's just silly and also intentionally marked as "supplementary food only" whenever you were to buy vegan cat food, at least over here. For a reason!
It's not a binary choice. Just use high-quality cat food. It's that simple. Ask someone who works with this professionally for help. And yes, high quality food will be 50%+ meat. That's supposed to tell you something.
"As someone whose FwB" is a new one for me. Hey buddy listen my FwB's in the military kinda vibes
Thanks for the post! (Highly relieving compared to some of the abusive stuff some are hurling).
Remove posts that have a serious potential to seriously harm cats, by making newer vegans believe it’s okay to feed cats a vegan diet?
Removing posts is arguably a pretty severe act when applied to discussion. I don’t know what the original incident was (thus my original questions), censorship around “dangerous” topics doesn’t need to be absolute and runs the risk of being dogmatic I’d say.
EG, How easily persuaded are “young vegans” and what else can be done to ensure no false impressions are made? Is outright banning the conversations actually preventing damaging behaviour or encouraging it by burying the issue and pushing it into more niche environments?
Also, it’s not irrelevant here, and hopefully common ground, that the underlying motive on both sides is to reduce harm to animals.
As someone whose FwB works with pets professionally, it’s difficult to be more wrong …
I have to say that given all of the concessions or potential issues with the pet food industry you go on to detail, this line seems strange.
In the end I appreciate your expertise and effort here (a great deal actually), but I think the only thing you’ve really convinced me of is that this could be an interesting discussion without posing any risks to cats.
It’d be interesting to know how good/bad some mainstream/popular cat food is and how it’d stack up against a decent attempt at a plant-based version and how well or badly it could be done.
Which doesn’t mean I’m about to go torture my cats with an experimental diet. Not at all! Many vegans, IME, care about their food (and of course animals), and so I find a default concern of vegans going off to do something stupid kinda weird and probably condescending.
EG, How easily persuaded are “young vegans” and what else can be done to ensure no false impressions are made? Is outright banning the conversations actually preventing damaging behaviour or encouraging it by burying the issue and pushing it into more niche environments?
Yeah that's an interesting point. I guess with good enough mod-tools, some sort of flag that shows up "Hey, please don't base your decisions on health or XYZ on something you hear from people you don't even know on the internet, just go and ask a professional please" would be neat instead of outright removal.
I have frankly no idea how good or bad the modding tools in Lemmy are, I just always hear they're pretty bad. But I know some other sites do this, flag potentially misleading or questionable content wit ha warning.
Yea flagging like that is definitely NOT (edit!, sorry) available.
But a mod/admin can post “as a moderator” which kinda counts. Beyond that a discussion can be had with the mods of a community to establish an understanding some new rules if necessary etc, and if negotiations breakdown, the community can be moved to a new instance in an orderly fashion.
It may not be enough for some situations, but seems like a reasonable starting point to me. AFAICT, there may have been a bit of a freak out from the admin in the original incident (which happens, it’d just be good to see if any lessons are being learned).
Thanks for the chat!
I like how your main rebuttal to vegan cat food is "its just silly". Appeals to intuition are surely substantial right?
This is purely shutting down a discussion based on emotional reasons, otherwise discussions about sexual abuse or child abuse would be banned as well "lest new gullible users think they might be suggestions".
If you want to actually read about the current scientific discussion on the matter I suggest reading "Obligate Carnivore: Cats, Dogs, and What it Really Means to be Vegan by Jed Gillen."
I like how your main rebuttal to vegan cat food is “its just silly”. Appeals to intuition are surely substantial right?
🤦
I like how that is what you got from it.
But yeah, sure. To break it down further, if you require more input than "it's silly as a concept" for this talk, or if you think of Jed Gillen as anything but a hack, you are neither mentally or intellectually adult enough to own a pet, in particular not a cat. Maybe a stone with glued-on wobbly eyes, and I'd be worried about that, too. Talk to an actual professional, geez. It's not difficult.
Thanks for repeating yourself again and proving me right.
Got any peer reviewed scientific evidence for your positions?
Got any peer reviewed studies that show that a vegan diet is impossible for a cat?
Oh wait this isnt a medical journal, its a shit posting board on the internet, so who gives a flying fuck.
I feel sorry for your cat