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Just to circle back, because you keep side-stepping it: Cuba is not equivalent to Israel. In any form or manner. That's what started this conversation.
If you followed any of the left pundits, news outlets, and even social media (including Lemmy) before Oct 7 you would know that Joe was long dead in the water to this demographic. You can latch on to Israel/Palestine as a defining moment for this election but honestly if it wasn't for this, this group would have found something else to latch on to. Joe may very well lose this election, but it won't be because of the progressive left by any shot as demonstrated by who is actually showing up tot he polls (even if pivot states such as Mi with large muslim populations exist).
Cuba is not equivalent to Israel. In any form or manner.
I never said that they are. I in fact specifically answered your question/assertion by saying so. That's not side stepping, that's accurately and honestly addressing your whataboutism.
That's what started this conversation.
No, that's the irrelevant direction in which YOU are trying to hijack the conversation.
If you followed any of the left pundits, news outlets, and even social media (including Lemmy) before Oct 7 you would know that Joe was long dead in the water to this demographic
I did and that's simply not true. I think you're letting your bias confuse you into thinking that any criticism equals total condemnation and disownment. It doesn't.
You can latch on to Israel/Palestine as a defining moment for this election but honestly if it wasn't for this, this group would have found something else to latch on to.
Typical apologist tactic: rather than address the issue, claim that the others are just PRETENDING to care about the brutal slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians with American weapons to have something to criticize Biden for 🤦
Guess what: we DO care, and the fact that you're more interested in deflecting to your conspiracy theory that the left just wants Biden to fail no matter what shows that YOU don't care enough about Palestinian lives and know nothing about the left outside of your own cynical caricatures.
Is it possible to have a conversation without morally loading every statement or are you here for the virtue signalling? I don't think I've attacked you personally in any of my posts, have I?
sure as hell isn’t PANDERING! What the fuck is wrong with you??
Typical apologist tactic
PRETENDING to care about the brutal slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians
deflecting to your conspiracy theory
shows that YOU don’t care enough about Palestinian lives
I think it's time to close Lemmy for the day. Cheers.
Is it possible to have a conversation without morally loading every statement
When that conversation is about genocide and the enabling of such? Hopefully not.
I don't think I've attacked you personally in any of my posts, have I?
Not directly, but accusing everyone on the left of not really caring about the genocide and instead just using it as a pretense to attack Biden for the sake of attacking Biden IS indirectly calling me a cynical liar.
I think it's time to close Lemmy for the day
Sure, just mount your imaginary High Road High Horse and ride away when you don't have an answer to legitimate criticism of your dismissive rhetoric, baseless accusations, and obvious deflection 🙄
I'm a progressive leftie and care about genocide too but it's not a magic shield that suddenly grants all my arguments immunity from criticism and also imposes on me the justification to insult everyone that disagrees with me personally. That's just called being a dick.
I'm a progressive leftie and care about genocide too
Suuure you are! All that talk about the left in third person and automatic defending of the conservative neoliberal Biden was just something I imagined! 🙄
it's not a magic shield that suddenly grants all my arguments immunity from criticism and also imposes on me the justification to insult everyone that disagrees with me personally.
Holy gigantic strawman, Batman!
You can criticize my arguments all you want, but if you're not only wrong but also arguing from a place of insulting and belittling prejudice and reflexive apologia, then you should expect to be criticized right back and yes, insulted for your obviously bad takes.
I may or may not have been right about you not really caring about the genocide, but the fact is that you're acting like it by pretending that Biden's willing participation in it is a non-issue and that anyone who criticizes him for that has an ulterior motive of "just not liking him no matter what" or whatever you imagine to silence that nagging "could I be wrong about Biden?" voice in the back of your mind.
I want lefties to be politically effective, but right now all we care about is empty rhetoric. You're the prime example of that. Instead of being concerned with engaging and constructing good arguments, you spent half the time criticizing my motivations. Because that's all we are amounting right now is living up to the meme of 'hot' air and no substance. So we come with asinine statements like:
Biden should just pause Israel because Obama was able to reverse Cuba
and the moment someone points how stupid this is you went straight to
WHY YOU LOVE GENOCIDE??!????!!!
We gotta do better (and i don't care if this sounds like tone policing). I'm sick of the fake moral indignation. I want people to start thinking about being politically effective and actually changing the discourse towards what can be accomplished.
right now all we care about is empty rhetoric. You're the prime example of that.
In what world is "stop providing weapons and political cover for a genocide" empty rhetoric?? Do you think reasonable demands automatically become unreasonable or "empty" if the recipient is stubborn enough? Or are you arguing either in bad faith or with very little thought?
Instead of being concerned with engaging and constructing good arguments, you spent half the time criticizing my motivations.
First you claim that I and everyone else on the left only have empty rhetoric and then you complain that I don't construct more versions of an argument that's self-evident. Pick a lane to be wrong in, please.
As for your motivations, the only reasons why I ever touched on them was to try and make sense of why you'd ever make such nonsensical arguments in spite of seemingly being capable of reason.
Besides, you complain a lot about me having the audacity to question your motivations after yourself claiming that everyone on the left only criticizes the US participation in the ongoing genocide to dunk on Biden 🙄
Because that's all we are amounting right now is living up to the meme of 'hot' air and no substance.
No need to refer to yourself in the third person. You're sounding plenty pompous and self-important already.
asinine statements like:
Biden should just pause Israel because Obama was able to reverse Cuba
Another ridiculous strawman. I never said anything resembling that and you know it.
and the moment someone points how stupid this is you went straight to
WHY YOU LOVE GENOCIDE??!????!!!
Again, I did not. Do you want me to leave you and your army of strawman alone so you can have your argument without me interrupting?
and i don't care if this sounds like tone policing
Nah, Neoliberals like you and Biden DO love yourselves some policing..
I'm sick of the fake moral indignation
There you go accusing me of faking it again. That's still false and also hugely hypocritical given how much you're complaining about ME questioning YOUR motivations 🤦
I want people to start thinking about being politically effective and actually changing the discourse towards what can be accomplished
And I want apparatchiks like yourself to stop pretending that everything that your Dear Leader actively chooses not to do is automatically impossible.
Giving up on your principles the moment the authority figures from your "team" resist isn't being effective. It's being needlessly submissive and demanding that others follow your meek example is authoritarian bullshit.
here is an example of your empty rhetoric:
sure as hell isn’t PANDERING! What the fuck is wrong with you??
Typical apologist tactic
PRETENDING to care about the brutal slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians
deflecting to your conspiracy theory
shows that YOU don’t care enough about Palestinian lives
give me a fucking break.
Those are all taken out of context and make perfect sense WITH context. This is Faux News level distortion if not downright Alex Jones lunacy 🙄
no. its just you morally loading every statement so that you can grandstand. And you do it in almost every thread I've seen you in. Try, as an exercise, to sometime engage with someone's arguments (just one time) without invoking any pejorative or dramatic virtuous invocations. You might find a new world is waiting for you- a wold where dialog can flow and thoughts can be exchanged. I'll be waiting for you there when you're ready.
more vacuous shit:
stop pretending that everything that your Dear Leader actively chooses not to do
Giving up on your principles
being needlessly submissive
are you a highschooler? Because that would explain a lot....
Again with the Alex Jones style out of context quoting bullshit. Go yell about gay frogs if you want to imitate that fundamentally dishonest blowhard.