American “leftists” claiming communists are “terminally online” for practicing basic internationalism
American “leftists” claiming communists are “terminally online” for practicing basic internationalism
IDK, maybe when more people here are getting screwed over, libs will radicalize and get off their asses instead of trying to guilt us for not giving legitimacy unconditionally to their favorite “lesser evil” bourgeois party.
Of course, using their meager leverage to extract concessions from the people supposedly representing them never crosses their minds…
Also imagine having the audacity to call us privileged when you see what’s going on in Gaza as a “single issue” instead of an escalation of violence by the ruling class that can and will go back to us.
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I genuinely hate Americans and I might hate so-called American “leftists” the most
Deadass; I just want white Amerikans to suffer at this point-- especially the "leftists" whose leftism stops at the red line their realtor drew 20 years ago.
Sadism doesn't fix anything. Since it's the most obvious argument I can think of off the top of my head that you'd listen to, I'll point out that there are many white Americans who are disabled, queer, etc. and they have white privilege as much as the next cracker, but if there's any truth at all to this "class consciousness" thing, both of you have an interest in being allies more than enemies.
If you want a more genuine argument, well, I do believe what I said was true so my actual take is similar, but it's that a generalized hatred for huge masses of people is effectively the symptom of a social disease, a manifestation of alienation. In general, we should seek to encourage the masses to be better rather than condemn them for not reaching our standards (however righteous those standards are in a vacuum). The left can only make progress as a democratic movement, and democratic movements must, on some practical level, believe in the people in a generalized way rather than hate them, even if it and we are deeply frustrated by the backwardness we frequently encounter.
Disclaimer: I don't mean this as a #NotAllMayos thing since I'm white, you can pray for my suffering until your hands fall off, who cares? Mostly it's that I got into a sordid conversation with some dipshit idealist reactionary on this website recently who was rhapsodizing about the glory and splendor of retributive justice and -- along with being, again, reactionary -- it just rubbed me the wrong way on a personal level.
Disclaimer 2: Fuck whoever does the "single issue voter" line, obviously
but if there’s any truth at all to this “class consciousness” thing, both of you have an interest in being allies more than enemies.
Maybe you're right, but again, we loop right back around to "'leftists' whose 'leftism' stops at the red line, stops at putting money on a political prisoner's commissary, stops at even CONSIDERING any kind of intersectional approaches that doesn't see a cracker (and usually a male one at that) in the driver's seat". I've seen too many of them and too much of that.
The only subjects-of-empire that I have time or patience for, for the foreseeable future, unless the unthinkable happens and common trends among the Amerikan left start reversing (with regards to the paternalist reflex, with regards to the "we don't have a race issue just a class issue" complex, with regards to white so-called "leftists" still pearl-clutching over Black nationalism when half the Black revolutionaries y'all uplift were nationalists first and communists second if at all in some cases) are my folk and the tribes who got done just as dirty. I'm not looking to alliance with white folk like that. Certainly not first, certainly not second, maybe not even third.
Like I said. You might be right; but at this point, you can't pay me to put my faith on that dice roll anymore. That's no eleven, that's snake-eyes.
I'm certainly not trying here to appeal to your emotions and tell you to like or respect white people -- I don't think that's a very useful conversation. Ultimately, I'm mostly coming from a strategic viewpoint that this is a country that is about 70% white, so unless you are gunning for separatism (which I would rate as a bad strategy given the American proclivity for carpet-bombing places it doesn't like), you're going to need to get around to working with white people, even if it requires leaning into the aspect of intersectionality concerning how people can be part of the dominant ethnic group and still harshly minoritized due to other factors.
But I think you're slightly mischaracterizing me even with the charity you apparently afford me. I'm not saying you should hold blind faith in anyone, white or otherwise. I don't think you should buy in, roll the dice, and then see what the payout is. What I am saying is that you should believe in the potential of people to be good and to see the better part of the white working class as people who can be comrades, even though they certainly aren't now. They don't know that they should be, why they should be, nor perhaps even that they can be, but it is the job of organizers and agitators to combat racism by promoting solidarity among people of all races, not just making expeditious use of solidarity that already exists (though they should do that too!).
I was resisting posting the Fred Hampton quote that has been ridden into the ground, but here's a version I found:
“We don’t think you fight fire with fire best ; we think you fight fire with water best. We’re going to fight racism not with racism, but we’re going to fight with solidarity. We say we’re not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism, but we’re going to fight it with socialism. We’re stood up and said we’re not going to fight reactionary pigs and reactionary state’s attorneys like . . . with any other reactions on our part. We’re going to fight their reactions with all of us people getting together and having an international proletarian revolution.”
Here, at least, is someone who was a communist first. Do we need to weigh him against Garvey?
so unless you are gunning for separatism
That's the thing: I always have been. I fundamentally do not believe that there CAN BE an 'Amerika' where Black folk and crackers coexist on an actually-equal level; haven't believed in it since Ferguson. The crackers will never liberate us. We will never know true equality if we just wait on them. Which means it has to be taken from them, bloodlessly or otherwise.
Where we actually see eye-to-eye is that I believe the nation of subjects, whether just Black, or a fusion of Black and indigenous tribes (however it shakes out) needs a Marxist approach, otherwise we will end up just emulating crackers and their political malfeasance.
I've lost my faith that the arc of history will bend toward justice, and climate change has put us on a clock that is rapidly running out of time. From my perspective, if justice never comes, revenge is fine too.
You have successfully impressed upon me that there's nothing I can say, though as America degrades, i.e. approaches revolutionary conditions, there will be significantly more white people who don't take the petite-bourgeois-driven path of fascism because they have already been left overwhelmingly proletarian, they will be people who agitation can practically reach. That's not to say revolution in even the best world would be bloodless, but, well, I can accept that I'm just talking in circles
From my perspective, if justice never comes, revenge is fine too.
This, however, is fully reactionary and, as one would expect from that, completely divorced from reason. There's just nothing to say about it because -- unlike other things you say that I don't really agree with -- it has nothing making it look legitimate besides bitterness. Anti-sociality is never Marxist, and this accomplishes nothing but anti-sociality.
You have successfully impressed upon me that there’s nothing I can say
Then what was the point of all this aggrieved bloviation? You know where I stand. If you really had nothing to say why the fuck are you still bending my ear? I am so, so fucking sick of this microaggressive finger-wagging bullshit out of you people when not one of you who has the gall to run your mouths has ever lived where we come from.
One way or another, the debt will be paid. With or without your high-brow paternalist approval. Now fuck off.
God damn I love my people 🗣️💪🏿
I’ve given up on the American working class and especially the white American working class.
“How do we reach them?”
We can’t, they will choose fascism.What we or the world do about that is another question, but that is what is happening.