The way I see it is, if one side wins, the Left will not only have to worry about the Palestinians, but suddenly they’ll have to choose between protesting about all those other things AND it’ll be with a hostile government that will curtail civil rights and probably start committing abuses against US citizens.
If the other side wins, all those other issues become less of a danger and the Left can focus on keeping up the pressure on Democratic leadership to stop supporting Israel. It’s still not guaranteed, but it’s a much better chance than in the alternative world where out and out fascism takes over. Focus on what’s important, don’t needlessly add more problems on to the pile.
You people should be less worried about leftists who despise both parties and more worried about the huge amount of people who just don't want to vote. Now it would be easier to convince people to get out and vote for an actual candidate rather than an artifact of campaign financing but hey, that's your problem to solve. Tell the Democrats to do better next time.
Democrats could nominate hitler reincarnated but you people would people would be defending them because republicans would have hitler reincarnated but who also hates animals. "Other guy worse" as a defense only means things continue getting worse because there will always be something worse. When can things actually get better for a change?
I get that this is not the hill to die on in this meme, but the tracks should really be reversed.
This implies "doing nothing" will only sacrifice Palestine, while "pulling the lever" (i.e. voting) will sacrifice Palestine+all other at risk groups.
Otherwise, this really is a classic trolly dilemma. We can't stop the train and someone is going to get killed.
I was going to make this, but put Palestine before the fork. And then put the person away from the lever refusing to participate when pulling the lever would move it to a track with nobody on it. Or pulling a different lever that does nothing (labeled Jill Stein).
Palestine is and will continue to get run over regardless who wins the presidency, so they aren't exactly relevant to the choice. It's not a real trolley problem because it's not a trade for different people. It's just "let the trolley run over Ukrainians, lgbtq+ people, minorities, and immigrants" or... don't. And then refusing to touch the lever because it somehow makes you "love genocide" to have anything to do with the trolley, even if to mitigate the damage.
Honestly, I wonder how much of our disagreements do ultimately come down to moral philosophy. I see a lot of people making this comparison and I'd be happy to put aside the present political situation and step back to discuss a higher level of disagreement.
I am a consequentialist, and I would agree, in principle, that the correct decision in the trolley problem is to pull the lever. But that should always come with an extreme amount of disclaimers. There are no shortage of people throughout history who have made justifications for their actions on the basis of "the ends justify the means," but often, they turned out to be wrong. To use an example, torture under the Bush administration was claimed to be justified on the basis of getting useful intelligence in order to save lives. But no such intelligence was ever extracted. Really, it was more motivated by revenge, or a desire to be the sort of cool antihero who does the stuff nobody else will that needs to be done, but "the ends justify the means" served as a rationalization. Another example like that (though perhaps more controversial) is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The problem with applying the trolley problem to real life is that we are mere human beings of flesh and blood. We have a whole host of cognitive biases that mislead us even when we have the best of intentions. If we give our minds a way to justify things that we know are bad, it gives it an out that allows us to rationalize the irrational and justify the unjustifiable.
There are two practices that are necessary to apply in order to counteract these biases. First, it is necessary to adopt a set of strong moral guidelines based on past experience and historical evidence. Second, it is necessary to regularly practice some form of introspection or meditation in order to better understand where your thoughts and feelings arise from, and how they flow through your mind. Said guidelines do not have to be rigorously adhered to 100% of the time, but they should be respected, and only deviated from after clear, careful consideration, understanding why the guideline exists and why deviation from them is almost always bad.
"Base" consequentialism, where you recognize that pulling the lever in the trolley problem is the correct decision, but simply accept that as a guiding principle, is a terrible moral philosophy, worse than deontology and possibly worse than having completely unexamined moral views. Some of the worst atrocities in history are the result of that sort of "ends justify the means" approach, detached from a set of moral guidelines and detached from humility and self-reflection. I would even say, speaking as a communist, that many of the bad things communists have done in history are a result of that kind of mentality. Following moral rules blindly is preferable to breaking moral rules without first doing the necessary work to be trusted with breaking them.
There's plenty more I could say on the topic but people always complain about my long posts so I'd better cut myself off there.
I'm hoping once Harris takes office that she can improve the Isreal/Palestine situation. But I suspect for now she has to keep her cards close or she'll lose some key support.
Politics has been an old-boys club for a long time. She probably has to tread carefully until she knows if she has a majority or not.
TIFI
Immigrants used to be on top rail, but after four years, they have been placed on both rails, just like the Palestinians. There is no guarantee that the groups placed on the top rail will not be shifted to the bottom rail as well in four years.
Voting for Democrats is always advertised as the lesser of two evils, but it sure seems like the lesser evil is just trying to kill the same groups the greater evil. If they want people to vote for them, the Democrats should start working to save and prevent people from being tied to trolley tracks.
Or at least lie about it.
Thank you for confirming my bias that both sides are indeed the same - I will now proceed accordingly. 😜
/s btw, and damn I wish this was funny. As it is, it feels all too real...😔
Too many reports. Locking this down.
Stop trying to condescend to me. Just because the Palestine policy is mere shades different between the two parties doesn’t make it any more acceptable. Both parties voted to cut UNRWA aid. Trump cut all aid to Palestinians, Biden resumed it then stopped it again. Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem and recognized the illegal settlements. Biden never undid that. Trump closed the Palestinian embassy in Washington and Biden kept it closed.
What kind of nonsense is this? Republicans used to argue that since Bush was not as bad as Saddam he could get away with killing Iraqis too. It was a stupid argument and it’s also stupid now. Palestinians aren’t judging us by our speeches or Biden’s intentions, they’re judging us by our violent actions.
If Harris wanted us to vote for her, she could at least try to reach out to us. Harris says Black Lives Matter, she says Trans lives matter, she says Israeli lives matter, she won’t say that Arab lives matter equal to Israeli ones. Why shouldn’t I vote for Stein, who DOES say this? Harris pandered to everyone on that list except Arab Americans and Muslim Americans. Her campaign didn’t even allow a single Palestinian to endorse her at DNC. Biden detoured his campaign stops so he could avoid Arab-American voters, has Harris done any different? You’re asking me to vote for you even though your administration caused suffering of Palestinians I know in Palestine, and you won’t promise anything different?
Edit: ah yes, downvote me all you want but I’ve been speaking to voters in swing states and you’re only lying to yourself if you can’t address this concern for them and expect them to magically come to your side. Killing the messenger won’t solve anything. Harris can’t even bring herself to say the most basic talking points in support of Palestinian rights. Just say you plan to make a committee to look into how to build a future Palestinian state or that looking back it was wrong for Biden to deny the Palestinian death count, and that would address a lot of concerns, but it’s like she’s intentionally making it harder for Arabs and Muslims to vote for her.
This is in an unbelievable reduction of the reality, but sure. I'd also love a citation on how Trump will be worse for Palestine. Unless you're going to suggest something utterly outrageous like he's going to nuke the whole planet or something, the situation is already a horrific genocide. Harris and Biden are already funding and arming the genociders. Trump has said this is also what he plans to do. His main argument against Harris vis a vis Palestinian genocide is that he's better friends with Netanyahu.
Me when I ignore state violence and genocide that happen under Dems. Maybe if we ask Dick Cheney nicely enough, he can get Harris to change her mind on policy.
In other words, op is proud and open about their willingness to sacrifice Palestinian lives in order to preserve their own comfort and safety under the status quo.
Anyone who can look at this meme and not only see one option as acceptable, but be proud of this depiction of how "right" they are (in their own minds) to pick the "lesser" (but still) evil, is the embodiment of "scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds".
All to avoid having to do any more than the bare fucking minimum that is voting in this theatre, and getting their pat on the back for being brave antifascists (lmmfao, only in their own minds, of course).
- In reality the tram has already been running in on a tram track were it has already run over more than 180.000 Palestinians (as estimated in Lancet article some months ago) as well as thousands of Lebanese.
- There have been hundreds of branches all allowing the tram to switch to a line free of victims and at each time Biden and Harris - the ones who have actually had the power all this time - pulled the lever to keep the tram on the line were it ran over more Palestinians and recently also Lebanese.
As usual with these propaganda "memes" the situation is misportrayed as one were the power is in the hands of common Americans, when the power has always been in the hands of the likes of Biden and Harris and who have repeatedly chosen to give more weapons to the Nazis, whilst knowing that it increases the risk of a Trump victory.
Even the kind of human being that only cares about "what's in it for me" and "is relaxed about the mass murder of babies" should be able to see that the Trump defeat they desire could have been guarantee almost a year ago by Biden simply stopping the sending of weapons and ammo to Israel.
I really hate you people for spewing your propaganda like that.
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The "worse" part implies the democrats didn't give Israel everything it ever wanted which is in itself outright propaganda.
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I don't know why Ukraine is portrayed like Palestine. Where are they getting ethnically cleansed that I missed? Where is this coming from? Show some respect to the worst humanitarian crisis of the 21st century for the love of god
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At how many atrocious policies do you say enough? At how many rollbacks from republicans that the democrats do nothing about do you say enough? At how many genocides do you say enough? If the democrats committed a second one? Trump would commit more you say. A third one? Trump would commit more. A fourth? A fifth? At what point do you draw the line?
https://medium.com/@ashwinjitsingh/the-trolly-problem-utilitarianism-vs-deontology-bd624a8e321e
"If one were to take a utilitarian standpoint, the means are justified by the end, which from a utilitarianist perspective, is the maximization of benefit. Hence, for a utilitarianist, whatever option guarantees the outcome of the maximum benefit is what is moral. Therefore, in the trolly case, a follower of classical utilitarianism would say that it is morally permissible to sacrifice 1 to save 5.
The deontological perspective in contrast, advocates for the means justifying the end. This, for a deontologist, the morality of the action should be based on whether the action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules, rather than being based on the consequence. In this light, a follower of deontologism would argue that it is morally impermissible to sacrifice one to save five because making the choice of having to kill someone is inherently wrong."
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It's so sad that that is the best available option.
People who don't want to vote for Harris over Palestine, please watch this video: https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
You're basically doing exactly the right thing, and just not factoring in an obscure yet critical piece of context, which this video lays out. When that context is factored in, it totally flips the call on who to vote for, even though none of the values change.
ITT: Americans debating whether choosing between "the ONLY two choices they have" is good or bad, completely forgetting revolts exist and completely disregarding their beloved 2nd amendment.
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Sounds like you aren't free anymore. You can bitch and moan about only having two choices all you want. If you vote Trump/Kamala/3rd party instead of taking up arms, overthrowing your state government and forcing your state to secede until the elections are changed to no longer be FPTP, then you are tacitly supporting genocide.
But maybe it was really hard to consider such extreme actions. Well, now you know what the anti-genocide choice is. Let's see if you risk your lives to stop your government from being genocidal fucks, or if you're gonna do nothing about it because you've been completely pacified as a nation and are now unable to even consider fighting against tyrants. If you'll excuse me, I'm not gonna hold my breath.
