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I wonder why communist leaders are some of the most popular leaders in their former socialist republics đ§đ§
Lmao they aren't. Thanks for playing our game though
Because opposition goes to the gulag?
He founded a sub-party of the communist party, and according to the wiki you linked, their ideology was literally stalinism. How is that in any way oppositional to Stalin?
- Stalinism doesnât exist, there is only Marxism-Leninism
- Many pro-market reformers were non-partisans, although some were in the CPSU
Stalinism is a subset of ML, as I learned from the wiki page you linked.
And OK, you're right, Stalin wasn't a brutal authoritarian leader because he allowed non partisans into a ML party that he created, and we'll just ignore the 1.7 million gulag deaths.
Actually, I'll do you a favor. You already know all the dead people under Stalin I'm going to bring up in this thread, so why don't you go ahead and just defend them all now and save us both some time?
Stalin wasnât a âStalinistâ he was a Marxist-Leninist by word and action, most famous gulag prisoner Alexander Solzhenitsyn received treatment for cancer whilst in it, and vast majority returned alive. I donât see how this is different to any other prison system in the world, just another piece of over-exaggerated Cold War propaganda for Western audiences.
I do agree this exchange is pointless, have a good rest of your day
Because they are not. Stalin for example was a mass murderer just like Hitler. So why would anybody like him?
Here is a mainstream Jewish holocaust survivor saying equating the communists and fascists is holocaust trivialization.
The difference is that Hitler was after one specific group of people and wanted to eradicate them. Nobody says that Stalin was as bad as Hitler, bit his death count was just as high. He killed millions of political enemies or people in the regions he conquered.
Can you point us to the exact page of the Black Book you get your numbers from? I want to read along at home
Wild that using a source like this with a straight face doesn't cause you to pause and wonder if maybe there's anything to question about the US academy and their hegemonic representation of history.
They literally say that the intentional killing was around 1 million. Wikipedia is a notably right wing anticommunist source, and they say a million intentional deaths.
So you were lying?
The difference is that Hitler was after one specific group of people and wanted to eradicate them.
Either you have no idea what you're talking about, or you're just a straight up nazi apologist.
Which one are you?
Hey, whoever told you those numbers is lying to you. The nazis killed 11 million people in the holocaust and 26-27 million soviet citizens. High estimates for people killed by the USSR outside of defeating nazism, failures, and sabotage is in the 100,000s, which is noticeably lower than capitalist oligarchies like the US and Britain. Also killing people based on them wanting to bring back old caste systems through violence is morally distinct from racism based mass killings.
The difference is that Hitler was after one specific group of people and wanted to eradicate them.
Also this isnt true, Jewish people, Roma, nuerodivergent people, disabled people, trade unionists socialists, communists, gay people, trans people, the list goes on.
Also you're still equating the two after being told doing so is holocaust denial. You're saying "well they killed equivalent amounts of people!"
How is saying Stalin wasn't a great guy either denying the holocaust?
Also this isnt true, Jewish people, Roma, nuerodivergent people, disabled people, trade unionists socialists, communists, gay people, trans people, the list goes on.
Yes ofc, but a big percentage of the deportated people were Jewish. They killed two thirds of the European Jewish population.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
High estimates for people killed by the USSR outside of defeating nazism, failures, and sabotage is in the 100,000s
No: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin
Stalin for example was a mass murderer just like Hitler. So why would anybody like him?
Here is a mainstream Jewish holocaust survivor saying equating the communists and fascists is holocaust trivialization.
You have compared communists and fascists, thus trivializing the Holocaust.
Are you referring to famines caused by the Kulaks destroying grain exacerbating a natural famine cycle, something that was somewhat common before the modern era. If you are, would you also say that every death caused by starvation due to poverty in capitalist countries should count towards the leader's "death count"?
This isn't about communism and fascism. It's about two asholes who killed millions. And I never trivialize the holocaust. I am just saying that Stalin killed a lot of people too. And more than just a few thousand. 20 million is a lot of dead people. So mb not as bad as Hitler but still realy not a great person. So the comparison to Hitler still stands.
How is saying Stalin wasn't a great guy either denying the holocaust?
You aren't saying that though, you are saying that they killed an equivalent amount of people. You're morally equating them. Also even the CIA didn't consider stalin a dictator in their since declassified internal documents, treating him as one is another way you were taught to equate the USSR with nazi Germany.
Yes ofc, but a big percentage of the deportated people were Jewish. They killed two thirds of the European Jewish population.
I know, that isn't the only group they targeted though. I was simply correcting an inaccuracy in what you said.
No:
Sorry, I thought it was high hundreds of thousands but it was actually a million. My mistake. Still, that is in no way similar to killing upwards of 35 million people in the name of bigotry.
some historians estimated that the numbers killed by Stalin's regime were 20 million or higher. (Same link as before: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin)
It's more that a million.
I don't know why you made this discussion about if he was as bad as Hitler. I never said so. I'm just saying that those numbers are not that far apart from each other. Thus making Stalin a murderer of millions. This discussion originated in a guy basicly saying that Stalin was indeed a great leader and personality. Which he is not.
And he willingly allied with Hitler. So moral he was OK with the crimes Hitler committed. At the same Time he deported a lot of people himself. Not as many and not as organized as Hitler, but still in the millions.
Stalin was a bad guy and Hitler was way worse. Happy? Just because that other guy was worse they can still play in the same category. "People who killed millions and deported a lot of people"