Right turn on red? With pedestrian deaths rising, US cities are considering bans
Almost every major city in the United States generally allows drivers to turn right at red lights, but that could be changing.
Lights have to get smarter. Right on red is half the traffic flow in my area.* I always see so many situations where a green turn arrow would be appropriate, and yet the intersection is relying on the right-on-red rule instead, causing each car to pause when it should be flowing through. And even more situations where a light always stops the majority direction of traffic on what must be a fixed timer that poorly syncs with some upstream lights, because it always seems to turn red as a clump of cars arrives, even when there's almost always no cross traffic. Maybe right on red is more dangerous in some places, and we can get rid of it, but we have to replace it with some actual civil engineering instead of making traffic even worse.
*±100% margin of error, sample size 1
How the hell did you get 0.5 cars going right on red? Did a car just plow through multiple houses between going straight and turning right at an intersection?
Your -2 comment score leads me to believe some people didn't get your joke. I'll explain it, which we all know will make it funnier.
The previous comment mentioned their observation of half of the traffic moving through right on red and, later in parentheses, said this was based on n=1, i.e., based on the observation of a single vehicle. I'm 100% certain that was a joke.
The follow-up comment was also certainly a joke. They're pointing out that the commenter observed one car and then made the claim half of cars use right on red, so they're jokingly asking how exactly half of one car made it through.
Get it? Now stop downvoting the dude, stats are great, stats dad jokes are better.
Totally agreed, and from the pedestrian side of things, civil engineering would be helpful too.
Our roads are too fucking wide for pedestrians. Give me some pedestrian islands and raised crosswalks.
I'm more interested in giving pedestrians a direct route that doesnt need to cross fast traffic.
fixed timer that poorly syncs with some upstream lights
This has gotta be the number one traffic issue in the US. Our timer lights are just garbage and we so rarely use sensor lights. Our traffic light setups always seem overcomplicated but not over engineered.
Pedestrian signals are slow too. Have to wait a long time to get the WALK signal, and its rarely necessary as it's already illegal to not let a pedestrian go at a crosswalk if you're turning into it, in my state.
Let me preface that I think using vehicles as a primary source of transportation inherently scales poorly, and you can easily argue this by looking at how much a road costs versus a rail and how much mass you need to move per person on car versus train.
That being said, I really hate this article because it relies on anecdotes from various people and opinions without making any effort at citing relevant statistics. It literally cites the TOTAL number of pedestrian deaths to vehicles in 2022. I tried to find some statistics on right turn on red light, but all I could find were 20 year old or older studies, most of which actually concluded that right turn on red doesn't really account for a large number of pedestrian injuries and deaths. Like this one, for instance, which claims that right turning on green can also result in pedestrian accidents which could result in much more severe injuries (I can see how this might be true but there's no evidence to back this up.)
It's interesting for me to look at this from a utilitarian perspective: Surely there is a tradeoff between the amount of time wasted due to traffic increase due to right turn on red, and the time equivalent to the amount of lives lost due to RTOR (assuming RTOR results in more deaths). This of course is an incomplete/flawed way to look at things as we don't give highway collision motorists the death penalty for causing huge traffic blocks; iirc though it is how a lot of safety studies are done (look into how the statistical value of a human life is determined from highway transport administrations).
I would really appreciate if someone could chime in with some actual stats and numbers (though I doubt they're readily available) about the topic, rather than some anecdotal comments. I'm not a fan of symbolic legislation that doesn't provide real benefit (think plastic straws bullshit), and I would like to see a convincing take on whether or not this is that.
I don't have stats this is pure anecdotal. My experience in Seattle is that I'm overwhelmingly almost hit by cars when we're both going the same direction and they're turning right on green. Not just compared to right on red but all situations where they almost get me. I'd also love real stats on the matter though
Having the green light coincide with a walk signal is basically coaxing drivers to strike pedestrians. In crowded parts of a city with idiot drivers behind me, I've actually had people try to pass me on the right (and drive into pedestrians) after laying on their horns while I was making a right because I was properly waiting for pedestrians to clear the intersection first.
It's bizarre that they set the traffic up this way. They should make a right arrow and have it red, or do pedestrian traffic while the red's still on or something. But a green light with a walk signal is very stupid.
Anecdotally, since COViD it seems like for right on red, people blast through at full speed without slowing. It ‘s certainly scary trying to cross a street even with a walk sign, but I haven’t died yet
I'm My State when the lights turn green to take a Right the pedestrian light also gives the pedestrians the green light to cross. So we have cars turning right while pedestrians are crossing. How much safer is that. At least now when you take it right on red the pedestrians don't have the right to cross.
Yeah you're supposed to yield to pedestrians yet there are no signs indicating so, it's so dangerous
Equally safe as if a vehicle was coming from your right. You are suppose to yield to those participants in traffic. It's just that pedestrian can't hurt you so they are commonly ignored. But they have equal rights and laws like every other participant.
Changing traffic laws will have some effect, but really we should be working on more lightrail and more high-speed trainsets. It will take time for housing and business to rebuild around stations, but it will simultaneously keep people safer, alleviate traffic, and reduce emissions. Nothing more satisfying than flying by traffic for less than the price a gallon of gas, especially if you live a decent distance from work or school too.
Right on red also causes terrible traffic problems at busy intersections as people who don't have the right of way turn right while people who do have right of way get stuck waiting to turn left or are forced to block the intersection.
I wish my city would get rid of it, at least in downtown areas where traffic is a problem and a lot of pedestrians are walking around.
In general, urban signal-controlled intersections are just the traffic engineers screaming "I've tried nothing and am all out of ideas."
We use them pretty much by default in the US, but most urban areas should be vastly cutting back on them. All-way stops and, of course, roundabouts are both provably FAR safer often with no impact or a positive impact to overall congestion. Plus, pretty universally much cheaper to build and maintain.
Signal-controlled designs should be reserved for intersections where it is literally not possible to fit a more passive design while maintaining sight distances or for places where truly huge traffic volumes are involved (a significant interchange) where no other traffic flow redesign is possible.
Using traffic lights is ALL about increasing level of service. Which is just code for "The city values keeping more cars moving faster over both safety and financial responsibility."
All that to say, I bet a lot of the intersections that would be most annoying without right on red... don't really need to have lights controlling traffic flow in them at all.
Aren’t roundabouts typically significantly larger than an equivalent intersection with traffic lights? If so I’m not sure that’s what we need in urban areas. We already give up so much public space to automobiles. There’s also the question of where does that additional space even come from? Do we bulldoze more homes? To me it seems real solution is to move away from personal vehicles in urban areas. Anything else is just trying to justify an inefficient and unsustainable lifestyle.
Roundabouts are pretty cool n and I definitely agree we should use those more (my experience with them is great when people aren't total morons) but you're insane if you think 4 way stops don't affect traffic. Where I live they've put in lights now multiple times at intersections like that and it immediately makes traffic better.
" All-way stops and, of course, roundabouts are both provably FAR safer often with no impact or a positive impact to overall congestion." This is a pretty big statement to make, and I was wondering if you could provide me the sources for this.
"The city values keeping more cars moving faster over both safety and financial responsibility."
But isn't keeping cars moving faster financially beneficial? From an energy perspective, needing to stop for every stop sign is way worse on fuel economy than going through a string of green lights and stopping every now and then. Don't get me wrong, I think using cars as a main mode of transport is incredibly stupid, but I think there must be some tradeoff between time/money/resources wasted due to traffic and time/money/resources lost due to premature deaths or poor living quality due to (non)fatal accidents.
USA has ass-backwards system for getting drivers license. At least from I could find online. You get learners permit after passing written exam. That's not nearly enough. In my country you have to attend 20 hours (optional depending on existing licenses) of theory, then pass theoretical exam. Then you have a driving instructor assigned to you for total 40h (or 20h depending on existing licenses) in 1h sessions. You first start training court where you train to start, stop, turn and other driving maneuvers. When instructor deems you ready for traffic only then you get to drive with them in the car and having dual controls for the vehicle. Only when instructor deems you ready you are allowed to take the test for getting the license. And even on the test you first have to pass training court before you are allowed to enter traffic.
By the time you got learners permit you have at least 40h of driving in traffic which is significantly better than just passing written exam.
In my eyes, law is not the problem but experience and people paying attention. Phones, doing makeup, eating food and other things should be forbidden in car because it distracts you too much.
The US is too car-dependent to make a drivers license harder or more expensive to get. Less safety is the price we pay.
Your roads are wider as well, which someone thought was a great idea for lowering number of traffic accidents, but in reality it only makes people drive faster and more reckless.
Yep, and we are generally not willing (as a society) to pay decent wages for things like teachers, so getting drivers ed teachers for all student drivers would be not possible. Private lessons would work but that would make it unavailable to a lot of less affluent people.
You pay much MUCH more for your car dependency, you just don't even realize how bad it is
There are at least 50 different systems for getting a driver's license in the US since each state issues its own license. Some states are far more rigorous than others. My home state has a system similar to what you describe only it includes an additional 40 hours driving with another licensed adult, in addition to the hours spent driving with a certified instructor and the classroom hours.
The state I live in now? Not so much. They basically just give out licenses to anyone who shows up, pays the fee and can show that they know what the different pedals do. Unfortunately this produces terrible drivers, as you would expect.
I just did a causal search and got that info but I fully expected a difference between states. Not to such a huge degree. Professional instructors can never be replaced by adult who has a license, no matter how many hours of experience they have. Instructors deal with beginners every day and are familiar with most common mistakes. They also have to be certified here and retake that certification on regular basis.
Saddest thing of all is that safety is lowest common denominator. You can be a good driver and even have tons of experience, all it takes to get hurt or killed is one poor driver. If your own safety in traffic depended on your own skill and you couldn't hurt anyone else, then by all means take as poor exam as you want but that's not the case.
It all depends upon state. I think the learners permit requires another licensed, adult driver to be in the vehicle and has other restrictions.
That said, I'm with you. I originally learned to drive in rural Ohio. I moved to Japan and finally decided to get my license. Since my Ohio license expired, I had to start from zero. I spent two weeks knocking it out at a training camp (there's a restriction on the number of hours of practical training per day, so there was a fair amount of free time). First, had to pass some basic checks. They did start practical on the first or second day on their closed course. There's a mid-point test that one must pass before being able to go out on the roads. There's a number of hours more of this and then two final tests (course and driving).
I got my mid-sized motorcycle license this year and that was also a number of hours (I want to say 17 altogether since I had a regular car license), though exclusively on the closed course.
In my opinion, licensed adult is not the same as professional instructor. I also got my motorcycle license last year and the amount of knowledge and skill my instructor taught me was huge. It shouldn't be a surprise since professionals will always be better at their profession than regulars but still it came as surprise.
Sounds like Revenue Generation to me. Some out of town driver doesn't know about the local traffic law, gets cited for breaking it, and loses if they fight it.
Why not enforce the "pedestrians have the right of way" thing?
The point is that people driving don't expect to see them, thus have trouble seeing them.
We've had right on red for a long time, maybe the cars (trucks) you can't see out of are the problem.
Drivers are becoming hostile and idiotic by the day. What you'll also notice is when it is green, they will stop instead.
Need higher or more severe penalties if this is to save lives
Green doesn't mean go, it means you are allowed to go. Law specifically states that you are to enter an intersection only if there's room for you. That is to say you can clear it and not clog the traffic. So no matter if it's green if there's congestion in the intersection you are not suppose to enter because that exacerbates the problem.
Personally, i think every infraction on the road should require your Drivers license gets revoked until you go to the dmv & retake your drivers test.
Speed? Blow a stop sigh? Illegally park? All of it should require a retest in order to regain your driving privileges..
We don't have right on red in europe. Can't imagine crossing the road to a median with it
We do have conditional turning lights though.
Right on red for us would be like left on red for you
Remember, our roads are flipped
Europe drives on the right. In that part of the world it's really just the UK and Ireland that drive on the left.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-_and_right-hand_traffic
Ah shit but of course
They should ban slip lanes too
I was in the US a bit over a month ago. Started to cross when the walk signal became green. A driver went into the crosswalk we were stepping into, only looking left and never coming to a stop until she saw the guy crossing from the other side. She never saw us once and nearly ran us over. We don't have the equivalent here (left on red) in Japan and we do fine. Get rid of it.
It often results in dangerous situations. It also keeps bicycling from becoming commonplace. Way too dangerous to bike in most areas.
Uhh not by default! The pedestrian crosswalks need to be hooked to the light, and timed better. When a pedestrian needs to cross (with the button), then no right on red—after the cars go. That way there isn’t a rush by anyone.
Drivers should not have the option to decide for themselves when they think it’s safe
I hate this sentiment. They don't want people to think for themselves.
Think they mean that most people don't have the necessary knowledge to determine whether a specific action or inaction is safe. Which is absolutely true.
This seems weird. Do you guys not have arrows for turning traffic? Just one set of solid lights??
CHICAGO (AP) — Sophee Langerman was on her way to a bicycle safety rally in Chicago’s Lakeview neighborhood in June when a car turning right rolled through a red light and slammed into her bike, which she was walking off the curb and into the crosswalk.
I live in Charlotte and they can ban all the want and it won't change anything. CMPD doesnt enforce any traffic laws in this city.
unless it’s that time of the month for quotas or you dare driving while black not a whole lotta traffic enforcement anywhere
cops are so fucking lazy in my state
numerous red light runners right in front of cops
I think traffic laws is one of the few things where Canada is even worse than the US. It's outright retarded how traffic lights work here and it's a small miracle that we don't have casualties every single day on every single street
What's the difference? I grew up only a few hours from the border but have never actually been to Canada.
Light's I'm not sure about. I've only driven from Vancouver to Bellingham, and a rental in Nevada somewhere, and the only notable difference is people seem to actually do the stay right and pass on the left thing in the states. Oh and half of Canadians don't use turn signals. Do Americans use turn signals?
Traffic lights, for one.
Normally green means "you can go, don't worry nothing in your way", of course when everyone obeys the rules.
In Canada, green means "well you're allowed to go but there is still traffic crossing your way" which literally removes the single one reason why traffic lights were invented in the first place. Going left in Canada is an exercise in futility. First you have to deal with cars from the other side going straight on. So you drive to the middle of the crossing, then wait for those cars to clalear. But wait, there is more! Now you have to deal with all the pedestrians that also are crossing. Meanwhile the light turned yellow for a full two seconds, before turning red, and you're still stuck in the middle of the crossing. Finally the pedestrians have cleared and after blocking the entire intersection for other traffic, now coming from left and right, for a full 5 seconds, you can finally continue to the left.
Each red - green cycle takes a good minute, and per cycle only one car can go so if there are 30 cars in front of you, waiting to make a left turn, you're fucked for the next half hour.
Who ever came up with this system should be lines up and shot. If he's dead already, dig him up, shoot his corpse and bury him again.
It's beyond stupid and dangerous.
As a pedestrian, you always have to run and look around you to be sure you won't be run over by some distracted driver, as a driver you are in a constant full panic mode to try and not murder pedestrians. It's a shitshow
About time.
She wasn't killed because motor vehicles can't make 90deg turns with a city corner radius at 50mph. (Drivers would if physics allowed)
This is OK and we really need to update speed limits and enforcement with what we've learned about safety since the 60s
With the advent of smart traffic lights I don't really mind losing right on red. But right on red is not the source of the issue The article shows there are studies that it's not the issue. Removing right on red is not going to improve the numbers.
The traffic light systems are complicated enough to handle camera data. How about we eat extra indicator lights when people are in the crosswalk? How about we put up some barriers and bad areas to keep people from jaywalking?
Unfortunately, like in so many other areas, the US is trending in the wrong direction compared to other countries. Traffic deaths is one of those areas.
look at the size of the most popular vehicles for various nations
issues is vehicle size to skirt fuel regulations not having the loop hole closed
I’m not sure that the National Motorists Association, and organization that thinks drunk driving laws are unfair to motorists and claims to be a “grassroots organization” but refuses to provide any membership statistics or funding sources is a reliable source on the topic of right on red laws.
I don't know where you live but in my suburb of Detroit right on reds is definitely a problem. I can be waiting at the light, ready to cross as it changes and some car drives up to the green and turns right into me without looking. What is your hurry? What do you need to get to 30 seconds faster? I will always vote to make it safer for pedestrians and bicyclists.
I have a better idea... ban pedestrians!
for real, why can't they just get a job and a car like normal people?
